Oh no! The mabul is looking less and less likely

Here's a great exchange on the LittleFoxling post on DH (the blogger and the hypothesis), which is the one good interview that DH has actually done. And by 'interview', I of course mean 'copying a post from littlefoxling's blog' (with permission).

Delusional RW Conservative:

One cannot help but be moved by the sincerity of Little Foxling. But I wonder how things might have turned out had he been brought up with a more honest open minded approach to issues such as the DH. What if he had been taught that the essential truth of the Torah is that it represents God's will made manifest in man, even if not all of it was written by Moshe [a position espoused by some Rishonim, but rarely taught today]? What if he was taught that faith in God is just that--faith, a metaphysical concept, not something that can be proved or disproved like a geometry theorum? What if he had been taught that belief in God means most importantly that one believes that there is a meaning to this life beyond the apparent absurdity, and that each deed we perform has ultimate meaning? What if he had been taught about how the essential "chidush" of the Torah, from all literature before it, was that man could, and indeed had the responsibility of, partnering with the divine to improve the world by his actions, and that the mitzvot were one of the means of doing so--but that performing mitzvot alone was not sufficient, without molding one's conduct to be worthy of representing the divine image, as "God desires the heart"?

I wonder how things might then have turned out for LF, and those like him.

One more observation. Respecting the comment about reading the Torah, and coming to the conclusion thereby that it must be human--There are those who can hear Beethovan's Ninth Symphony and hear the voice of God emanating from the music. Then there are those who fall asleep at the concert. I guess it depends on how good an ear one has for music.:)

In Judaism, recently, non-obscurantist approaches, such as Conservative Judaism, don't seem to have much staying power. However, I would argue that the reasons for that were 1) lack of faith in a coherent theology as to why Jews should perform mitzvot as expressing the will of God, and 2)theology aside, failure to make normative the performance of ritual mitzvot, especially shabbat and kashrut.

My personal hope and belief is that a non-obscurantist version of traditional Judaism will evolve out of Orthodoxy. One that will have all the faith and fervor lacking in "liberal" religion, but without the fanaticism and ethical blindness that one too often sees today among the "frum". I'm not sure that I will live to see it, though.

Response from LF:

Haskalah, Reform, CJ, recon, Jewish renewal, XGH all tried this. All failed. As beautiful as your ideas are, they are unlikely to motivate people to get out of the bed on a Sunday morning for shachris. That's just the reality of the matter. That's human nature. The closer Judaism is to Humanism, the harder it is to justify its unique rituals.

So I have to disagree here. I think LF is coming from a Chareidi mentality: Rituals have to 'justified', they have to be 'commanded'. They have to come directly from God or else they're all completely worthless. I mean who would ever get out of bed on a Sunday morning to go do something unless it was directly commanded by God? (Answer: Everyone on the planet who gets out of bed on a Sunday morning o go do something not directly ommanded by God.)

Also, the comment about 'all tried this, all failed', is patently untrue. There are many people who are motivated within all those movements (especially the XGH movement). Does it have the raw power and motivation of OJ? Of course not. But then OJ isn't actually true, so OJ isn't an option.

Orthopraxy, like eveything else, is simply a lifestyle choice. Frum Skeptics are obsessed with the 'But will it last?' syndrome. If we could somehow show that Orthopraxy had staying power, it seems like LF and others would jump in. But since Conservatism has failed, it's like they're not interested. I guess they  don't want to be part of a 'loser' movement. But this is just  another manifestation of Chareidi thinking: 'We've got to be the one true sect (or at least a sect that will survive for 3,000 years and outlast every other sect) or else we're not intersted. But why? Why can't something just be good for you, or maybe good for you and your kids, and leave the future to the future?

Us ex Chareridim (and even ex MOdim) are inflicted with the Black and White Syndrome: Either it's all true, it's all directly from God, it's all the one true derech, it's all going to outlast everyone and everything. Or else it's all totally worthless. There's no middle gound.

The way out is to realize that there are actually some man made things which actually do have some  value. You know, like music, art, technology, science, culture, religion. That kind of thing. Maybe they don't last forever. But then nothing really does.