Divrei Ben Sirah has an interesting post about a shiur he attended from Rav Willig and Rav Shachter on the subject of Orthodoxy. He writes:"R' Willig started by saying that the community has accepted the Rambam's principles as binding, and therefore they are binding, even if they weren't so beforehand. "
This is interesting, because a few years ago I attended a shiur by Rav Willig in which he described Orthodoxy as minimally keeping shabbat and kashrut, and he didn't mention beliefs. Though after I excitedly blogged about that someone then claimed to have checked up with Wilig and he said of course you need beliefs. Anyways, he's clear now.
I think Rav Willig is basically right, from a sociological perspective, belief in the ikkarim seems to define Orthodoxy - or rather belief that belief in the ikkarim defines Orthodoxy is widespread.
This is a bit unfortunate, I'm sure the Rambam would be turning in his grave if he knew about this. But the Rambam only has himself to blame for this mess. He was too arrogant (at least as a younger man), and assumed he could figure everything out with his odd mix of neo-aristotelian or whatever philosophy. Some academics hold that the Rambam himself moved away from the ikkarim, and of course there was that scandal where it wasn't entirely clear if the Rambam believed in techiyas hamaysim.
I personally think that it's possible the Rambam did move away from the ikkarim in later life, but it doesn't make much difference to me,what I believe in isn't dictated by some 12th century Rabbi/Philosopher, the very notion is absurd.
Possibly though, in an ej type of way, we could reframe this whole conversation to be less about facts, beliefs and reality and more about something else, which then makes Rav Willig look less delusional. I'm not quite sure what the something else is, but hopefully ej will take the bait and come up with something.
Which brings me to my next point. The Rosh Yeshivah of YCT is coming to town soon, and of course I signed up for the program. But I'm also pretty sure that he's not going to say anything which will be remotely useful to me, how could he?
And, I'm often informed by even my most LWMO friends and rabbis that 'my issues are not LWMO's issues'. In other words, I'm all spun up about beliefs and reality, but LWMO is all about women's equality and woman rabbis and stuff like that.
On the whole, this seems to be true. But the LWMO types are not oblivious to reality, in fact many of them are fakers and are actually skeptics who don't believe in TMS and have strange (or maybe more normal) conceptions of God.
So what's going on here?
Could be they are all just faking it to stay within the fold. On the other hand, maybe they truly don't regard beliefs as a big deal. They think it's obvious that fundamentalism isn't really true, but they don't care. They think that ritual, values and morality is more important, and that's what counts. So they are willing to play by the rules of the religious beliefs game, in order to have a voice in the more real and practical issues of women rabbis and the like.
Now you might see, but the whole conversation about women (or any halachic matter) only starts in the first place because of beliefs, so if you don't really believe in the beliefs, why would you spend time arguing with people whose entire position is based on faulty beliefs. What's the point?
But indeed there are people like that. Maybe they just get a kick out of arguing within the system. Or maybe they are too scared to reveal their true colors. Or maybe they like the system so much, that they just want to stay within it, yet still fight for women's equality and such. And / or maybe they think that woman's equality is a winnable battle potentially, but discarding TMS isn't, so there's no point. Or maybe they're just semi delusional.
I would like to get inside the head of a LWMO nick who is not a skeptic and figure out what they're thinking. My guess is that for the ones who are not fakers, they probably have some 1950's Conservative Judaism / Louis Jacobs type thing going on - the Torah is Divinely inspired but yet the DH is correct.
Posts
40 comments:
Have you read "Must a Jew Believe Anything?" by Menachem Kellner? He makes a very strong case the 13 ikarim were an aberration and that there's virtually no basis in the Torah for codified "dogma" in Judaism.
Has the thought ever occured to you that some people aren't certain?
They are certain about the equality of women, so they fight for that. They aren't certain about history, and so don't fight about that.
"Have you read "Must a Jew Believe Anything?" by Menachem Kellner? "
Of course. Also Marc Shapiro's book. But Kellner's arguments haven't gained much circulation in the wider sphere. Nor have Shapiro's.
"They are certain about the equality of women, so they fight for that. They aren't certain about history, and so don't fight about that"
Could be.
Of 5 million Jews in the USA, perhaps less than 10 identify as "observant" which covers the entire sphere from bullet proof clothing to Conservative. We ( I really mean I) have been trapped in a cult since birth. To the world at large I am Orthodox. To my neighbors and family I am Orthodox. I eat anything when others are not present. I go to a shul on Shabbat mornings for kiddush and socialization. My wife puts duct tape on the bathroom light switch on shabbat as well as a pump pot for hot water. I have in my possession a talit bag with tefellin which is used when there is a brit for a relative. Just today I have noticed in my underwear drawer a frayed pair of tzitsit. I dine at Talia's but would rather be at Ben Benson's. Yet I am Orthodox. And that's where they'll bury me
For someone who admits it is socially impractical to send his kids to an academically superior secular school, you should have a keen understanding of the disingenuity of lwmo types.
DovBear has been going off on chabad lately....XGH, can you weigh in?
Here is one quote from DB "The chabad claim doesn't even pass the laugh test unless you were born
chabad and indoctrinated into it."
Can't DB say the same thing about orthodox judaism?
Ksil, I am now tolerant of Chabad, even the extremists, ever since I realized mainstream OJ has no more legitimacy than Chabad (or any other cult).
I loved that book "I am an Orthodox Jew" as a kid.
LOL
> I think Rav Willig is basically right, from a sociological perspective, belief in the ikkarim seems to define Orthodoxy - or rather belief that belief in the ikkarim defines Orthodoxy is widespread.
Given that Orthodoxy is a sociological phenomenon, isn’t that the same thing?
"Can't DB say the same thing about orthodox judaism?"
Absolutely, and it's the height of hypocrisy for him to consistently skirt the issue.
I think that LWMO made a wrong turn when it tried to get all legitimate. YCT seems to pretty much everybody like a bunch of rabbis trying to rationalize their liberal notions with halakha and even if they succeed, they only get so far. And by conceding that all things have to find a place in the textual tradition, they have lost the PR war from the beginning. It's like if pro-choicers began by conceding that abortion is murder and then went on to rationalize how it's okay anyway.
Somebody needs to start standing up and defending the idea that Modern Orthodox laypeople don't necessarily believe in all the fundamentalism or that halakha is binding and that that's ok. Such things used to be normal before the late 1900s when everybody started thinking that the way their parents lived wasn't good enough because it didn't match up to some book or some rabbi's view of halakha.
They think it's obvious that fundamentalism isn't really true, but they don't care. They think that ritual, values and morality is more important, and that's what counts.
I think this describes a lot of MO people, although not necessarily the YCT rabbis. I think somebody prominent needs to stand up and start defending the idea that that's an ok way to live.
I was thinking about this in regards to my comments on this post which you might find interesting.
I think MO can and should be the denomination that you are looking for, the Conservative Judaism that works. You just have to give up on the intellectual side of it a bit. Or maybe the YCT guys can be useful. Somebody's going to have to rationalize gay marriage in the next 50 years for MO to remain remotely viable, and maybe they can do that.
Willig mentioned Shapiro. He categorized the book as "nit-picking," which I took to mean he agrees that they are required beleif, but gives a little more wiggle room. I bought the book many years ago but never read it. Maybe I'll give it a read over yom tov.
>>>I personally think that it's possible the Rambam did move away from the ikkarim in later life,
Projecting, eh?
I suspect that saying the Torah really intended for women to be treated equally will be more successful in bringing about change than one who tries do so from a secular perspective.
"Am I Orthodox?"
Why does it matter? "Orthodoxy" is a false division in Judaism set to divide Judaism in terms of doctrine like the multitude of Christian sects. We are all Jews, some are just more traditional in terms of beliefs and practices than others.
>We are all Jews, some are just more traditional in terms of beliefs and practices than others.
Hence the label....just like there always were label in the past.
"For someone who admits it is socially impractical to send his kids to an academically superior secular school"
Huh?
"Can't DB say the same thing about orthodox judaism"
Of course. That's why DB is ridiculous. Or as DB would write, rediculus.
I take the bait. I change the questions:
Why are some soooo disappointed and angry with Orthodoxy, while others continue to feel deep feelings of love and gratitude towards the Orthodox way of life? Does it make a difference how a person was treated by their teachers and community? Does it depend if they were raised, charedi or MO? Should these positive feelings be encouraged, or is it true that there is no merit in being attached to worlds replete with myths and religious fantasy?
What is the role of our own history in deciding who we are and how we are going to live? In particular, does it make any difference how the Holocaust affected our families? Much of charedi life is connected to rebuilding/undoing the Holocaust. The same for Israel and its constant feelings of paranoia and isolation. Why is it that in MO circles we hear a lot more about RJBS derashot than what Stalin and Hitler did to the Jews ? Is the Holocaust a motive/reason for being traditional, so as not to give Hitler a posthumous victory? Does the Holocaust dictate a current MO politics, and if so what might such a politics look like?
When there is no fear of God, are the bonds of affection that tie a Jew to his religion ever sufficient to keep the Jewish people together? Do we really like each other as people or “we’ve more or less had it…THEY are all either crooks, kooks, paupers or nouveau riche .” Is the frum way of life attractive or is it all we know? Forget about guilt, should we be ashamed to be secular?
I hear JTS will be changed from an academic institution with rabbinics to a rabbinical seminary in competition with places like YCT and the non-denominational Rabbinical School of Hebrew College in Boston. This is a major change in Conservative thinking. Chancellor Eisen is trying to create a new generation of rabbis that will increase the traffic in Conservative synagogues, provide an impactful message to the congregants and become competitive in the religious market place between Centrist Orthodoxy and Reform. So here’s my question: What would it take to create something effective? Does success depend on the rabbi’s message, his charisma or maybe neither? How would an Orthodoxy that is not Orthodox work? What does it take to change a dying synagogue with an elderly membership into a vibrant religious community?
3 MORE QUESTIONS:
Does neo chasidus-Jewish renewal-spirituality (Green, Fishbain, Zalman Schecter, a straight Moti Elon, Shlomo Carlebach) in a halachic context hold any appeal? Can there be a MO chassidic community or a MO/Conservadox rebbe or is that an oxymoron?
Protestant thought has moved from subjective readings of the Bible to thinking that the subtleties of morality are to be found in literature and in particular in fiction. Should literature become an important element in Orthodox consciousness? What role if any should the arts and entertainment play in an ideal Orthodox world? Why are book and movie clubs a staple of secular Jewish life, but hardly figure in the religious world? Should we look to the arts for inspiration how to live, and if yes how do such new aesthetic and moral sensibilities reintegrate into Jewish life?
Should synagogues be politicized if they are to have any relevance? In what direction? The Reconstructionist synagogue in Evanston holds pro-Palestinian meetings. Is this disgusting? How can religious people be both morally relevant and supportive of Israel? Does a life of Torah and mitzvot need a politics?
So there it is…not a word about feminism or rationalism ? I tried to stretch the possibilities while not prejudging the degree of frumkeit necessary, hoping some of these topics might be of interest. Back to you, XGH.
Is the frum way of life attractive or is it all we know?
Being part of a group that condemns homosexuality as an abomination, and assumes that there are inherent differences between people of different religions, is dispiriting.
ej,
i love to read what you write, even if some of it is above my limited intellectual level, (especially when you name drop), but doesn't it all boil down to one tiny question
"why be jewish?"
and a compelling response to this then might provide some basis as to "how to be jewish?"
david a....Thanks for the generous compliment.
I think I know the answer to "Why be Jewish?" It's like asking "Why live in America and not elsewhere?"
Hopefully there will be an occasion to talk about this some more.
"I think I know the answer to "Why be Jewish?" It's like asking "Why live in America and not elsewhere?" "
I really hope you've thought about this more than that.
Unless by America, you meant Israel.
I mean just as I don't have to justify living where I do, ('Why not?')I need not justify why I am Jewish. Being Jewish in an active way is much like living in a country...there are certain benefit and liabilities, and transportation costs if you chose to live elsewhere. People move only when they think the net benefits less the transportation costs are far superior elsewhere.
Apparently in recent times in America many have thought a move away from being Jewish is worthwhile, and that is the problem.
"People move only when they think the net benefits less the transportation costs are far superior elsewhere.
Apparently in recent times in America many have thought a move away from being Jewish is worthwhile, and that is the problem.
April 4, 2011 4:17 PM"
I agree with your premise, but not the application or you observation.
In America, where strong Jewish Identity is at 15%, you have to actively move and put an effort into being Jewish. Not being Jewish is the lazy, default position. (i.e., to be Jewish you have to go to a community, pay more money for schools, pick kosher food etc.) So the question is... why be Jewish? Why actively pursue the Jewish way of life?
In Israel, where strong religious affiliation is closer to 40%, then you are correct. A person has to go out of their way to not be Jewish. (i.e. its hard to find non-kosher food) However the numbers in Israel don't show large amounts of people actively leaving Judaism. They (not surprisingly) show a growth.
So the question is... why be Jewish? Why actively pursue the Jewish way of life?
Maybe this is a question if one is coming from a baal tshuva's perspective, but for those who are born into an Orthodox or traditional community and indoctrinated at a young age, the default position is clearly to remain Jewish and Orthodox.
" but for those who are born into an Orthodox or traditional community and indoctrinated at a young age, the default position is clearly to remain Jewish and Orthodox.
April 5, 2011 9:03 AM"
That is only true in the most cheredi of places.. so maybe 3% of Jews in America? I know where I went to highschool, most FFB kids were breaking shabbos and had plenty of non-Jewish friends.
Anon 10:22, your experience has not been the same as my experience, but that's not a surprise considering how areas differ. I'd like to know, though, how having "plenty of non-Jewish friends" constitutes leaving Orthodoxy.
"What does it take to change a dying synagogue with an elderly membership into a vibrant religious community?"
EJ, or anyone else, if you have a good answer, please let me know--my "dying synagogue with an elderly membership" (at 61, I'm one of the youngest members) could use some advice.
Re the question "Why be Jewish?," I think Gilbert and Sullivan already answered that one:
"For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps Itali-an!
ALL.
Or perhaps Itali-an!
BOAT.
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
He remains an Englishman!"
Most of us are Jewish because we were born that way, just as most Americans are American because we were born that way.
>>> Most of us are Jewish because we were born that way, just as most Americans are American because we were born that way.
It seems you missed the question of “why be jewish”. it meant acting and doing what’s needed to be jewish, not simply existing … so its not the same as being American, and where whatever little is required is enforced by law and the police.
And EJ, “why not” certainly is not compelling enough to tell your 16 year old.
When i was a kid i eagerly wanted to be/act jewish (meticulously) because:
1. i was (indoctrinated) to believe that God wants me to.
2. I was told that if i rack up enough brownie points, a huge reward awaits me post-mortem. (and the opposite, if i was a bad boy)
Well, EJ, now that i/we know that (1.) is most certainly NOT true and, myself am not too convinced of (2.), where does Judaism go from here.
Okay, David A., I'll bite. Why be Jewish? For the fun of it. For sitting in a sukkah and shaking a lulav and etrog. For lighting Chanukah candles. For eating tons of fruit on Tu B'Sh'vat. For dressing up in costume and drowning out Haman's name, then stuffing ourselves with mishloach manot munchies on Purim. For telling tales and singing songs around a Seder table. For talking Torah and eating cheesecake and/or bourekas all night (or at least as long as I can keep my eyes open) on Shavuot. For chanting Tehillim (psalms) and Hallel, rapping with Matisyahu, and singing beautiful Blue Fringe and silly Shlock Rock songs. For dancing Israeli folk dances to ancient biblical and modern Israel texts. For the fun of it. That's a good enough reason for me.
Shira Salamone...I see from your bio you are a member of a right wing Conservative Congregation. It all depends where you live...if your town or neighborhood is oysgespielt, played out, decaying and there are few young or middle age Jews, as is the case in many areas here in the Midwest, you can't create something from nothing. However if there are potential members, a lot can be done, depending how far you are willing to go. We should discuss this at length here...it all depends on XGH. Meanwhile there is a good post on this topic by Bruce over at 3Jews4Opinions, with many good comments, including some from me where I try to push the envelope some on the theory of what do you have to lose.
http://www.threejews.net/2010/10/saturday-morning-conservative-and.html#disqus_thread
We only scratched the surface.
David A...My “why not” was a point about the burden of philosophical proof, relevant here on the internet where people argue we ought not to remain actively Jewish and/or religious. With a child, as you point out one can’t afford to be glib. From my experience, in a family questions arise about behavior, but not about being Jewish as such, assuming the family is integrated into a Jewish social world. What to do about kids who are less frum than the way you had hoped, is controversial, with many different opinions. My general philosophy of raising children has always been to establish limits on both sides of an issue, and within those limits go with a gentle hand. I personally am not of the “if you do X I will put my head in an oven” school of chinuch.
My response to your other issue “why X if there is no reward and punishment” is “because you want to, given where you are; i.e. the expected payoffs, transportation costs etc plus any additional non-utilitarian reasons like a feeling of being connected to the history and the culture of the Jewish people.”(Holocaust, interest in Torah, agreement with some of the ideals and values, feeling for parents and so on.) But what if that’s all gone…then as Anonymous 1 points out, you are already living in some assimilated space and the transportation costs run the other way.
In 2006 on my blog I was already playing around with transportation costs and why stay frum. 1/01/07 and to a lesser degree 12/20/06,11/05/06 and 10/13/06 are somewhat relevant posts.
http://evanstonjew.blogspot.com/
In some ways I agree with EJ. Even among the non-Orthodox, in my experience with friends and relatives, the question of "why be Jewish" or "why stay Jewish" rarely arises. But for nonobservant Jews the stakes are much lower. They don't pretend to believe things that are obviously ludicrous, and most have sensibilities and values more in tune with the greater culture than do most Orthodox Jews.
Paradoxically, an orthoprax Jew who is fully integrated into the frum world is more likely to ask "why be Jewish" than a semi-observant or nonobservant Jew. That's because being a Jew entails so much more from an observant Jew, both in terms of actions and (yes) in terms of belief.
". Even among the non-Orthodox, in my experience with friends and relatives, the question of "why be Jewish" or "why stay Jewish" rarely arises."
Very curious. The only time I encountered the question of "why be Jewish" was at USY, and JCC events. Not at NCSY events. At NCSY events the question was, "why keep halacha" but never, "why be Jewish"
Tesyaa you are not Orthodox by any stretch. When you become Orthodox, you say goodbye to the goyishe world entirely, including friends, coworkers, and God forbid any intermarrieds in your own family.
MJ…Let me try again. I came down too hard on ‘epistemic’ which doesn’t appear to be your point. So saying over your second comment, is it like this? 1)The mitzvoth are understood to be an outcome of a process similar to the way the contractarian tradition derives moral and political principles. 2) We should argue that even if torah evolved over time, nevertheless the mitzvot are binding. Why? Because they would have been chosen in some a priori thought experiment of deriving mitzvot as a choice made under uncertainty, a veil of ignorance and other such plausible abstract conditions. The mitzvot generate the same normative force as would an actual historical kabalas hatorah, because this a priori position is the one we should use in deriving this torah constitution as it were. 3) Instead of thinking of mitzvoth as chukim and mishpatim commanded by God, we can now understand these mitzvoth as both constitutive of our community, and what we owe each other as members of this special community. 4)The phenomenology of these two approaches are different, since the traditional way locates the source of these mitzvot in a being who is omnipotent etc., whereas the contractarian approach locates the basis of mitzvoth in what we owe each other as persons and equal citizens of the commonwealth of Torah.
Is this anywhere close? If yes, please explain how you would deal with the mitzvot associated with Seder Kodshim, Taharos, parts of Zerayim, etc. Why would these mitzvot have been chosen?
My last comment was meant for the XGH post of 3/11. I reposted there.Perhaps these last 2 comments here can be deleted.
Every time I do this I am as embarrassed as the first time.
Post a Comment