I know of quite a few OPers who are in the closet, and the question is, do they have an obligation to come out of the closet? Should they tell people what they really believe, or are their personal beliefs nobody's business but their own?
The recent Ami Magazine article on Orthopraxy seemed to imply that the OPers were evil sickos, not just because they lacked the requisite beliefs, but also because they weren't being honest about their lack of beliefs. And, perhaps somewhat ironically, I myself have in the past criticized the 'Fundie Fakers' who say one thing but believe another. Are Ami Magazine and I really on the same side on this one?!
But is this a legitimate criticism? Just how honest does one need to be? Aren't beliefs a private affair? On the other hand, if the whole raison d'etre of the OPer is a quest for truth, isn't it somewhat hypocritical that they then become dishonest about their own beliefs?
I think there are a number of ways to approach this, but first we have to more clearly define what we are talking about.
For the purposes of this post, I am assuming that we are talking about people living in an Orthodox Jewish community, going to an OJ shul, with kids in an OJ school, and are not newly minted BTs. Said people however, for whatever reasons, do not believe in all the tenets of OJ, which at the present moment are sociologically defined as the 13 ikkarim.
One further thing needs to be clarified - what do we mean by 'does not believe?' Does this mean one has to be a strong atheist? How about an agnostic? The head of RIETS told me that as long as someone doesn't emphatically deny the existence of God, they are not classified as a kofer, and very few skeptics / OPers emphatically deny God's existence, they just lack belief in Him. Also, an OPer could believe in God, but might just have doubts about TMS, or Techiyas Hamaysim, or one of the other ikkarim.
So for the purposes of this post, I'm talking about honesty in what you believe, whatever that may be. It may be you believe in 12 ikkarim, but have doubts about number 13. It may be that you do indeed emphatically deny all of them. Or anything in between. There certainly may be halachic ramifications in the level of disbelief, but that's not my focus here (though in some circumstances, this could be very relevant indeed). It may be you don't know anymore what you believe. For this post, none of that is relevant. I'm talking about being honest about what you truly believe (or don't believe, or are not sure). Likewise, some people have predictable cycles, like believing in God during takeoff and landing. Whatever is really going on in your head, that's what I'm talking about.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, just what do I mean by honesty? Do you have to tell as many people as possible under all circumstances? Shout it from the rooftops? Or just respond honestly if and when asked a very direct question? For the purposes of this post, I'm going to say that we are talking about a situation where there is an expectation that you believe, and that if you don't believe, the other people involved would like to know that. So for example, since religion in the workplace is a no-no, there's no expectation that you tell your boss that you are an atheist, so that is not under consideration. However, if your Job is OJ Rabbi, then there is an expectation.
Now to approach the question. I'm first going to approach it by considering the person or persons to whom you are being honest (or dishonest) with.
1. Honesty to one's spouse (or similar partner)
In general, I think most people would say that it is indeed very important to be honest with one's spouse. Nobody would be happy with a spouse who lies to them, and in an OJ marriage presumably your beliefs (or lack of) are certainly something your spouse would like to know about. But what if you have a decent marriage, but your spouse is a hard core fundie, and you just know that they couldn't handle it, and it would destroy your family, perhaps even result in divorce. Do you really have a moral obligation to tell them the truth in such a case? Honesty is important, honesty to one's spouse even more so, but I would be hard pressed to say that it's worth destroying your marriage for. On the other hand, what kind of marriage (or partner) is it anyway that can't tolerate one spouse losing beliefs?
2. Honesty to one's family (parents, siblings)
My take on this is pretty simple. You don't owe your parents honesty (unless you live in their house). The Torah (and my subjective morality) say that you should treat your parents with respect. But that doesn't mean you have to tell them whats going on with your life. Same deal with your siblings.
3. Honesty to one's kids
This one is a tough one. Of course you shouldn't generally lie to your kids. But if you are an OPer, presumably your kids are going to an OJ school, and you could really mess them up by filling their heads with your beliefs or rather lack of. I know of an OPer who simply took his kids out of the OJ school and placed them in a community school - problem solved. But if this isn't possible then what? I think it may depend on how old they are. It's commonly accepted that little kids don't get the whole truth anyway, we frequently hide all sorts of things from them, so I don't think that's much of a problem. However teenagers or older should really be told the truth. This leads to a bit of a disparity however, since above I said you don't owe your parents the truth, but here I'm saying you do owe your kids. This doesn't seem right! So maybe you don't owe your kids either?
4. Honesty to the community
What about your shul? LWMO shuls seem to operate on a 'don't ask don't tell policy', and I think they pretty much expect that many of their members are not true believers anyway. But what about chareidi or RWMO shuls? I know of a very honest OPer in the UK who was bothered by this, so he asked the London Beis Din, who promptly told his shul that he wouldn't be allowed to get any aliyos anymore! An extreme reaction to be sure, but if this is the reality, then does an OPer have an obligation to tell his shul Rabbi about his beliefs? I would say it depends on the community or shul. LWMO, not a problem. RWMO or Chareidi, maybe you should tell them.
5. Honesty to your flock
But what if you are the Rabbi?! There was a blog a while back by an Orthoprax OJ Rabbi, and many people were horrified. Likewise, the Ami article talked about a posek who was Orthoprax (don't worry - they took 'steps' and made sure the problem was dealt with). Or not a Rabbi, but someone in Chinuch or similar. So I think it really depends on the situation and on the expectation. An OJ Rabbi is expected to be a believer. I think his congregation would be upset if he was faking it, hence there's an obligation for him to be honest. Likewise a Rebbe, or an Aish Hatorah lecturer or similar. I don't think this applies to academia though, they are supposed to be objective truth seekers, someone can write about TMS without personally believing in it. But a religious figure is certainly expected to believe. Incidentally, I just read that Mordechai Kaplan quit his shul job for this very reason. And it makes sense, if you are an OPer, then don't go being a Rabbi! But like the previous cases, it could be more complicated. What if you became a Rabbi many years ago, and only developed doubts later? What if you have a large flock who need you? What if you can't get another job and your salary is vital? All good points. But I would say that at the very least, you should probably stay away from preaching about faith.
A totally different approach
There may be a totally different way of looking at this. You could say, all fundies are totally delusional and dishonest anyway, they don't really care about the truth themselves, so why not just lie to them? Why should you have to be honest to people like that?
Another totally different approach
Here's another way of looking at this. A slightly lomdisher way. The Torah doesn't mandate against private beliefs as such. That's between you and your maker (assuming He exists). What the Torah doesn't like is when you speak about your beliefs, or even worse, act on them. So as long as you keep your beliefs (or lack of) to yourself, it's fine. The issue is davkah telling people what you believe or don't believe, or preaching kefirah. According to this, staying quiet is actually the better option. This doesn't sit so well with me, because at the end of the day its still kinda dishonest, especially if there is an expectation that you are a believer, but I've heard people use this type of rationalization.
Perhaps the bottom line here is that it totally depends on the who what where when and why. I don't have a consistent policy in dealing with the closet Opers that I know personally. There are multiple people I have hassled or continue to hassle because I feel they should be more honest about their beliefs (for all sorts of reasons), and there are other people I haven't ever bothered and wouldn't dream of doing so.
After thinking about this I realize that the people I leave alone are just your typical baal habos types, whereas the people I hassle are all Rabbis, educators or similar people of influence. I guess my thinking is that there is a large group of OPers out there who are lost, and a few OP Rabbis or educators could be a real inspiration to them (and me). It bugs the heck out of me that I know Rabbis here in the US who could do wonders for my cause but don't speak up because they are scared about being kicked out of their communities. Also I don't like fakery, and an OP Rabbi seems to be a bigger faker than most. But I would be interested to hear other perspectives on this.
Are you Orthoprax? Are you in the closet? Have you told anyone? Who have you hid the truth from? How do you justify being less than honest?
Posts
89 comments:
> On the other hand, what kind of marriage (or partner) is it anyway that can't tolerate one spouse losing beliefs?
Given the way non-believers are viewed in much of the frum world, isn’t that like saying, “what kind of marriage (or partner) is it anyway that can't tolerate one spouse murdering someone?
> You could say, all fundies are totally delusional and dishonest anyway, they don't really care about the truth themselves, so why not just lie to them?
They may be delusional (from a certain point of view), but dishonest? Being mistaken is not the same as lying.
> Are you Orthoprax?
Yup.
> Are you in the closet?
Sometimes.
> Have you told anyone?
Lots of people. Ok, not lots, but a significant percentage of the people I know. I just don’t know many people.
> Who have you hid the truth from?
Hid? As in, actively deceive? No one. But I don’t discuss my theological leanings with casual acquaintances any more than I discuss any other personal aspect of my life. Same goes for many relatives.
> How do you justify being less than honest?
Do you tell every woman you meet about your fetishes so that they don’t inadvertently excite you without their knowledge? No? Same principle.
I think ideally, one should tell your spouse. I guess it has to be taken on a case by case basis. But if you are dating, and not married yet, I think its utmost important to let them know.
Why disclose "non-belief"? Just disclose doubt!
Believe me, after your critique every sermon you hear, every artscroll book you read, every rashi and ramban, every absurd story in the gemorah....people figure out that you are a SKEPTIC.
Nuthin wrong with that, and OP is more about being a skeptic than a denier ( for me at least)
Honesty is such a lonely word, hardly ever heard
...mostly what i hear from you
Maybe I am missing something here but doesn't Orthropraxy involve practising the tenants of Orthodox Judaism? Doesn't Orthodox Judaism hold lying, in most cases, to be sin?
Simply stating how Orthodox Jews don't tend practice what they preach here doesn't absolve you any more than it does them. Unless, of course, by Orthropraxy you just mean acting like Orthodox people do without any semblance of a belief system behind it altogether. In that case, it seems that honesty would not be nearly as important as tricking yourself into believing that your actions were just and honest, so you could perform the part more convincingly.
Maybe I should put forward the real question you might want to be asking. Say all the Orthroprax were to come out of the closet in a very clear way to the community. Now the ball is the Orthodox's court. Would it be honest for the Orthodox, now not only knowing your role but also being forced into the uncomfortable position where it is known that they know your role, to not do anything about the situation and just let things go on? How do you think they would respond? How should they respond? What role would honesty play in this?
>On the other hand, what kind of marriage (or partner) is it anyway that can't tolerate one spouse losing beliefs?
Not sure. If one spouse has been led to believe that kofrim and OPers can't be trusted, and he/she thinks the evil spouse will be constantly trying to sneak lard into the cholent when nobody is looking, could be a problem. You would think this would be a trust issue - if you trusted your spouse before with everything else, you should logically continue to trust your spouse now. But it could make you reevaluate everything. What else has she been hiding? Maybe this whole time my spouse was a kofer, she WAS sneaking lard into the cholent?
This may seem unrealistic, but a more likely problem will be where the frum spouse believes it's impossible to raise children properly with the OP parent. It's certainly believable that the OP parent might lead lackluster sedarim or won't be enthusiastically encouraging belief in midrashim, which the frum spouse may see as incompatible with a frum education.
Not to mention the very real chance that others find out and the frum spouse is publicly shamed for being married to a kofer.
Might be best just to avoid the whole headache. What to do when you find out your spouse is not ideologically sound is not a scenario that people play out in their minds often. Reactions could be tragically unpredictable.
>But if you are dating, and not married yet, I think its utmost important to let them know.
I think by definition an OPer would think that being an OPer is less of a big deal than would a frummy. What I mean is, from the perspective of an OPer, his being an OP will make no difference. Powerful incentive not to say anything. Still, I'd probably agree he should say something.
>Honesty to one's kids
In general, I'm against proselytizing. If someone is happy believing what they believe, I say it's morally preferable to let them do so. I'd say this extends to kids.
By agreeing to live as an OJ, the assumption is the kids will be raised as OJ. Try for the best school possible, but understand that this is the life you have chosen for yourself. I wonder how mixed marriages work. When the product of a Jewish/Christian marriage (where its agreed the kids will be raised Jewish) comes home and says Christmas is shtuss, does the Christian parent feel an obligation to speak up?
Obviously, "orthoprax" is just a new, non-word for the the old fashioned "hypocrite".
The question of course is: is there anything wrong with being a hypocrite?
According to atheism, men are merely soulless bags of chemicals who possess no free will. Therefore, whatever anyone does is merely a natural event, no more evil or good than a tornado is evil or a spring shower is good. Whether you are Osama bin Laden or Mother Teresa, you just exist, you have no moral value since you have no free choice.
If you wear a kippah, then you are lying to everyone you meet who asuumes you are a kosher yid.
It is deceitful and unethical to falsely advertise yourself as something you are not.
As Rabbi Sherwin Wine said "life is too short to compromise on your integrity
>An OJ Rabbi is expected to be a believer. I think his congregation would be upset if he was faking it, hence there's an obligation for him to be honest.
So what? Suppose an OJ rabbi is plauged with thoughts of Adultery all his life but never acts on it, the equivalence of Orthopraxy. His congregation would be upset if they knew. Does he need to stand up on the bima and resign? Does he need to tell everyone he has lust in his heart?
Vox, does not a parent have the obligation to NOT teach his or her children outright falsehoods?
so, you just continue to tell your kids its all true, even though you know its not. That is EVIL!
BHB, that is so different, no? its one thing to lust after treif food (ask nate) but to believe the whole damn thing is false?!?!? C'mon. That rabbi should move onto to something else....
I'm sort of Orthoprax.
My husband knows and understands. He's supportive of me. But he also knows I have zero interest in abandoning the lifestyle because I don't see any gain in that.
I can't be honest with my family. They think people who are OTD (and they probably would lump Orthoprax in that group) have psychological issues. My parents have told me all my life that they only care about their kids being observant otherwise they would have failed. I love my parents too much to burst their bubble. They did fail in terms of my belief.
Now, I'm MO. So there were always things I did that aren't really according to halacha anyway (like mixed swimming) so its a lot easier for me to be Orthoprax.
I am choosing to raise my kids as OJ, but I won't outright lie to them. If they ask me questions, I will answer to the best of my ability.
I don't believe I have any responsibility to tell anyone else though.
It's paradoxical, because Orthoprax people care a lot about the truth. But Orthoprax people are bound by social ties as much as the average person.
>So what? Suppose an OJ rabbi is plauged with thoughts of Adultery all his life but never acts on it, the equivalence of Orthopraxy. His congregation would be upset if they knew. Does he need to stand up on the bima and resign? Does he need to tell everyone he has lust in his heart?
Sheesh. Bad analogy. Active thoughts of sin are not the same as a total lack of belief in the very premise of the entire religion which your congregation mechatchila expected from you when they hired you.
And how is that equivalent to orthopraxy??? Orthopraxy is not believing in something and acting upon it. He is thinking of something and NOT acting upon it.
>That is EVIL!
Genocide is evil. Kidnapping is evil. Rape is evil.
Given circumstances of peoples lives, I would not be so hasty to call this evil.
HH, I am glad you decide what is and isnt evil for everybody.
would yuo consider raising children in a cult evil? I would. what if one believes that rabbinic orthodox judaism is a cult? thats child abuse and evil.
(btw, i would put child abuse in your genocide, kidnapping and rape - and isnt it funny that genocide is mandated in the torah and that rape is not mentioned as an issur....)
you are one topsy turvy dude
Do you tell every woman you meet about your fetishes so that they don’t inadvertently excite you without their knowledge? No? Same principle.
If your fetish involves a woman dressing like a frummy and shouting "There is no God" while climaxing then you could kill two birds with one stone.
>Vox, does not a parent have the obligation to NOT teach his or her children outright falsehoods?
Not really. Look, if it's like your kid believes the red light means go, then yes, you should disabuse him of that notion.
But it's not like Orthodoxy is a cult or like some terrible perversion. I'd say it's better than most religions out there, and there's a lot of room to make it fit your morals. There's definitely a lot you can do to curb its worst excesses in your kid. And there's a lot about Orthodoxy that is benign or even beneficial.
It seems silly to send your kids to Orthodox schools, live like an Orthodox Jew, and then feel obliged to keep reminding your kid you're only doing it for sholom bayis.
It seems more cruel to me to dump your own anxieties and unhappiness on your own kid, who did nothing wrong but get born into your existential angst. Just so he should also be a faker? Yay intellectual honesty!
If someone is happy, and isn't harming anyone else, and isn't really harming himself in any demonstrable way, let him be. You figured it all out, give your kid the same chance. No point in swapping out one forced indoctrination center (yeshiva) for another (home).
I would be interested in finding out what Mormons do. There's no way they believe that shtuss. What do they tell their kids?
I would be interested in finding out what Mormons do. There's no way they believe that shtuss.
ha ha. Don't you think that secular Jews, and many other people, think that there's no way Orthodox Jews really believe their crazy dogma?
>ha ha. Don't you think that secular Jews, and many other people, think that there's no way Orthodox Jews really believe their crazy dogma?
Not as much. Being an Orthodox Jew is a huge investment of time, money, and wearing ridiculous clothing and waving ridiculous things. We better believe it!
What do Mormons do? Allegedly wear funny underwear? Smile a lot? Does anyone really think that Mitt Romney and Harry Reid really believe that the Mormon president really speaks to G-d, or that Jesus visited upstate New York or than Native Americans are Israelites?
>If your fetish involves a woman dressing like a frummy and shouting "There is no God" while climaxing then you could kill two birds with one stone.
Channeling Woody Allen
>what if one believes that rabbinic orthodox judaism is a cult?
Then you probably wouldn't be Orthoprax. Sounds like a different discussion altogether.
vox, i hear you on the kids. no doubt, that is THE hardest piece of this honesty dilemna. at least for me.
yea, its easy for a frum jew to look at mormons and say "thats easy!"
but for a regular person, it aint that easy
you see the BYU basketball player that got kicked off the team for sleeping with his girlfriend?
here is a list
http://www.mormonrules.com/
oh, and btw, try being raised amish.
Vox, your comment is ridiculous.
Outsiders don't really understand that being Orthodox is a big money pit; they think it's just tzitzis and a black hat, and nice things like lighting Shabbos candles and going to shul. And even if you spend megabucks on being frum, why would that imply that you believe in it? People spend megabucks on all sorts of stupid things.
And Mormons do have responsibilities - taking a couple of years out of your life as a young person for "shlichut" is not a small sacrifice. And why the heck would you think that Mitt & Harry DON'T believe in their religion? And why are the tenets of Judaism less "shtuss" than Mormonism?
You are so immersed in Orthodox Judaism that you can't possibly see it as outsiders do.
I might have been too tough in my previous comment. Basically there is NO difference in the believability of Judaism and the believability of Mormonism. Judaism has a track record of mostly honorable, moral behavior. Mormonism doesn't have a long track record. Assuming Mormonism continues on it's current path, come back in 5000 years and tell me the difference between Judaism and Mormonism, from the point of view of believability and historical accuracy.
Hazal tell us it is permitted to be less than honest for purposes relating to maintaining the "peace." There is no greater peace than protecting spouses and children. This is nothing new. You think there weren't skeptics in "der alter heim?" Give everyone a break with the "honesty" routine.Maintaining bonds of friendship with others is far more important.If the "honesty" obsession is overwhelming, please see a therapist.
Boo, people use that excuse WAY TOO often in the frum world. dont rock the boat. it'll shteir her shidduch. its loshon horah.
I call BS on that. especially when it comes to outright falsehoods
Maintaining bonds of friendship with others is far more important.
Agreed. But the burden is on the Orthoprax, because many believers and fundamentalists DO NOT think that maintaining bonds of friendship is more important than dogma.
In other words, it's the Orthoprax who have to compromise and shut up, because the believers brook no compromise. And that's sad.
Just look at the posts on BeyondBT about BTs proudly, bravely blowing up their family relationships. Skipping a brother's wedding resulted in a BT and his father not speaking for 20 years and counting! And he's confident that he did the right thing, and receiving validation and support from his fellow BeyondBT'ers!
>Outsiders don't really understand that being Orthodox is a big money pit; they think it's just tzitzis and a black hat, and nice things like lighting Shabbos candles and going to shul.
Granted, my perspective may be a bit warped, but at least in New York, when you think Orthodox Jew, you think those crazies in Williamsburg who wear caftans, long white socks and fur hats and sport long sidecurls. Perhaps you've seen them haggling over palm branches or asking people if they've put leather boxes on today? Maybe one lovely autumn afternoon you've seen them walk to the pond en masse to feed the ducks? Maybe you've seen them protest the creation of bike lanes? Good chance you know they live like Amish people on Saturdays.
But even if you don't know anything about Orthodox Jews, my comment is really towards people who do have knowledge of other religions. Are there lots of crazy things Mormons must do?
There definitely are some. Playing missionary is definitely one, but I don't think you have to. Not drinking alcohol is a biggy, I guess. But I think they don't present as being all that different or crazier than the rest of the population, other than in belief. Which is what I think makes it an easier commitment for an OP Mormon. Whereas if you meet a Satmar, you know it.
>And why the heck would you think that Mitt & Harry DON'T believe in their religion?
I'm not sure Mitt Romney is capable of "belief" but that's a different discussion. I don't want to accuse random individuals of being kofrim in their religions - for all I know Reid is very frum. But I would be interested in hearing how a man with an acknowledged prophet goes about making decisions that are probably in opposition to that prophet's ideals. But I don't want to belabor the point. I'm just saying, there must be Mormon OPers in significant quantities. I'd like to hear how they cope.
>And why are the tenets of Judaism less "shtuss" than Mormonism?
As you say, in 5000 years it will make no difference, and ditto Scientology. But I don't live 5000 years from now. It would be a lot harder to start Judaism or Christianity now, than it was 3000 or 2000 years ago.
Not drinking coffee is a bigger biggie than not drinking alcohol. Who doesn't drink coffee? We once had a nanny whose grandmother was a Seventh Day Adventist, and our nanny didn't drink coffee or even eat coffee ice cream. She made it clear that she wasn't a practicing Seventh Day Adventist, but she had just picked up this habit from her grandmother (I guess like secular Jews who don't eat pork, even though they don't believe). We still thought it was weird.
I don't agree that I am obligated to tell anyone anything about myself. Perhaps I can't lie, though even that is something to be addressed on a case by case basis, but I certainly am not required to confess. Also, the issue is much more complicated than this allows. Suppose, I believe in god, but the God I believe in is not the God my Rabbi believes in. I have to tell him we disagree? Why? Or suppose I believe in God, but not that the Torah we have is a letter for letter match with the Torah Moshe received. Why do I need to announce this? Most people don't really care, and will either ignore the confession, misunderstand it, or latch on to a sound bite (DB doesn't hold from TMS!) that they'll use to harass, intimidate or embarrass. I should expose myself to that? Why? In short, I don't think anyone is ever obligated to open a can of worms. Most people are too dumb for this kind of conversation anyway, and it will only confuse them, or cause them to draw incorrect conclusions.
>HH, I am glad you decide what is and isnt evil for everybody.
Someone needs to since you took it upon yourself to decide —out of any context— to call this evil.
>would yuo consider raising children in a cult evil? I would. what if one believes that rabbinic orthodox judaism is a cult? thats child abuse and evil.
It depends what the cult does. If one believes ROJ is evil, than there is a bigger problem here.
>(btw, i would put child abuse in your genocide, kidnapping and rape - and isnt it funny that genocide is mandated in the torah and that rape is not mentioned as an issur....)
Did you forget the law of a person raping a girl in the field? Yes, genocide is mandated under a specific context against a people that were out to war with you.
i found holy hyrax and his brother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-KalLo3qBU&feature=related
ksil 12:23
Destroying your children's chances for a shidduch or turning your wife into a pariah because of an inane need to come clean with your felings about Biblical criticism and the big bang is nothing short of utter foolishness and constitutes a form of destructive narcissism.The so called truth does not stand as the supreme ethical value.I think caring for others does.When your 40 year old unmarried daughter asks you why you had to "do it," what will you tell her?I think alot of the truth squaders here have alot of pent up anger against the Orthodox establishment.That anger belongs in therapy.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-KalLo3qBU&feature=related
sigh.
I am sure everyone noticed all the digital ink I spent giving you an answer and bending myself into a pretzel. You are right.
I expanded my comment here: http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2011/04/honesty-shmonesty.html
>>Destroying your children's chances for a shidduch or turning your wife into a pariah because of an inane need to come clean with your felings about Biblical criticism and the big bang is nothing short of utter foolishness and constitutes a form of destructive narcissism.
My thoughts exactly!
The so called truth does not stand as the supreme ethical value.I think caring for others does.When your 40 year old unmarried daughter asks you why you had to "do it," what will you tell her?
Boo, you have a point, but you can look at this two ways.
When your adult child who comes to the same conclusions as you 30 years later asks you why you didn't tell them the truth about Judaism, what are you going to say?
When your child asks you why you sent him to yeshiva when he clearly would have been better off in a non-Jewish school, what are you going to say?
When your homosexual son asks why you never told him that homosexuality is not really an abomination, what are you going to say?
When your 40 year old unmarried daughter asks why she had to go through the shidduch system when in your heart you believed there's nothing wrong with dating males at a coed college, what are you going to say?
By sticking with the system you are denying some people happiness, just as by bucking the system, you may be denying some people happiness. Nothing works for everyone.
The frum world definitely doesn't work for everyone.
The advantage to being unhappy outside of the frum world is that you have many lifestyle options to choose from. When you're unhappy in the frum world, the only alternative may be to totally break with your past, and your family. That seems like a harsh way out.
>My thoughts exactly!
And yet, Ksil can call others evil.
HH, c'mon now. i didnt call "people" evil. i said doing "that" (like tesyaa explains) to your kids is evil. now take it back!
further, DB is not orthoprax. he believes in TMS. he believes in chazal. he searches for rishonim ad neauseam so that he can feel good about the fact he practices an ancient religion in 2011. g'zunta hait! enjoy that! but that is way different then coming to the realization that the entire mountain is built on a pile of bullshit!
>>And yet, Ksil can call others evil.
What??
>When your adult child who comes to the same conclusions as you 30 years later asks you why you didn't tell them the truth about Judaism, what are you going to say?
You can say, it's not my job to dictate to others what beliefs they should find compelling and inspiring.
>When your homosexual son asks why you never told him that homosexuality is not really an abomination, what are you going to say?
When you have a homosexual son, you should tell him you don't think he's an abomination.
>When your 40 year old unmarried daughter asks why she had to go through the shidduch system when in your heart you believed there's nothing wrong with dating males at a coed college, what are you going to say?
If we're talking about a daughter who wanted to date outside the system, I'm not sure who's fault it is that she didn't. There'd be little I could do to stop her, and lots of Orthodox people do this. It's really not a dealbreaker except in the craziest communities. If we're at that stage, where we're in a crazy community that won't allow it, or allow me to allow it, and there's a desire on her part to do it, she's probably off the derech anyway for all intents and purposes.
And if she doesn't want to do it, I should force her?
At the end of the day, if your kids have tainos on you, the best you can do is explain your situation and the reasoning you used. We're bound to screw our kids up in any number of ways. So long as our actions appeared defensible to us at the time is I think all we can expect of ourselves.
>HH, c'mon now. i didnt call "people" evil. i said doing "that" (like tesyaa explains) to your kids is evil. now take it back!
My problem is you categorizing even this act, given the context and consequence in a family, as evil.
>but that is way different then coming to the realization that the entire mountain is built on a pile of bullshit!
For all practical considerations, there is no difference. A person that thinks the whole thing is BS still has to think of the greater consequences at stake.
vox, your answers to your kids are not adequate.
>>For all practical considerations, there is no difference. A person that thinks the whole thing is BS still has to think of the greater consequences at stake
Yup, you have obligations to the wife and kids and ruining their lives for the sake of "truth" isn't one of them.
"ruining their lives"
no.
freeing them from insanity, dogma, falsehood, racism, mysoginy, gay-bashing, elitism....
allowing them the freedom to choose their own path. they have no freedom of choice. and you are suggesting their parents do not either. which leads to a sucky life and existence.
When you have a homosexual son, you should tell him you don't think he's an abomination.
After he hid it from you for 20 years and lived a life of misery and emotional torture because he thought it was an abomination, based on what you taught him. Sure, he'll feel better.
If we're talking about a daughter who wanted to date outside the system, I'm not sure who's fault it is that she didn't.
Maybe because she thought you would be very upset if she broached the possibility? Or she thought she'd be an outcast to her seminary and BY teachers and friends if she did? (Schools that you chose for her, or at least approved).
And so on.
Again, many people can and will be happy in the frum world. But the consequences of being unhappy in the frum world are worse than the consequences of being unhappy in the non-frum world. And unless you believe in the tenets of frumkeit, why take the chance of your child being extremely unhappy?
>>freeing them from insanity, dogma, falsehood, racism, mysoginy, gay-bashing, elitism...
You can free them from all those things without renouncing Orthodox Judaism.
>freeing them from insanity, dogma, falsehood, racism, mysoginy, gay-bashing, elitism....
Sure. If you can do that. But what if that is not what is going to happen. The point is, you can't just be gung ho about it and tell them your truths. You need to think first if there will be unintended consequences.
as i said on your blog, you obviously do not belong to a black hat shul, send your boys to a yeshivish yeshiva or your girls to a bais yaakov.
>>After he hid it from you for 20 years and lived a life of misery and emotional torture because he thought it was an abomination, based on what you taught him. Sure, he'll feel better.
Idea: Don't teach him that. Teach him the opposite. And show him how such a teaching is legitimately OJ
>>Maybe because she thought you would be very upset if she broached the possibility? Or she thought she'd be an outcast to her seminary and BY teachers and friends if she did? (Schools that you chose for her, or at least approved).
Idea: Broach the subject with her, and let he know its ok. Or tell her its not ok because in every case - religious and secular - there's sense in following the community norms. This isn't an OJ issue, at bottom.
>>nd unless you believe in the tenets of frumkeit, why take the chance of your child being extremely unhappy
False choice. You can eliminate all the difficulties presented here -- easilly -- without also renouncing Orthodox Judaism. L'hefech. You eliminate them by embracing a different flavor of OJ,
>>as i said on your blog, you obviously do not belong to a black hat shul, send your boys to a yeshivish yeshiva or your girls to a bais yaakov
You know what happens when people assume....
DB, how can you tell your homosexual son that it is OK within Orthodox Judaism if he engages in homosexual activity? 100% OK. If you can show that, I'll be amazed.
None of this "it's OK to have homosexual leanings but not engage in the act". Or "oral sex between homosexuals is technically permitted". I mean, the real thing.
You said in a recent comment that no one should condone homosexual acts. (Maybe it was an aside and it wasn't meant to say that. But you did imply that).
DB, let me try this again.
Do you have a 10 year old a 14 year old and 17 year old who have been brainwashed in this yeshivish system since birth? Then you wake up one day and realize its a big scam?
NOW WHAT DUDE??!?!?! NOW WHAT?
here is something you can relate to: 2 years ago they did a mock presidentia election, obama versus mcain, in the bais yaakov my kids attend.
can you guess what the out come was?
94% mcain.
(and you can apply this to all the other stuff you think i can just dismantle overnight by telling my kids they can just go to YU and wear shortsleaves and knit yamulkas)
ksil, DB probably realized that parts of it were a "scam" before his kids were even born. That does make it easier to avoid the total brainwash experience.
And I think you can dismantle stuff, but not overnight. It took a while to totally brainwash them, so it will take a while to unbrainwash them.
>can you guess what the out come was?
>94% mcain.
Just saying, the result at YU would be about the same.
If, halfway through your children's chinuch you discover you've been living a lie, you've got a problem. But if the kids are adjusted to the OJ world and are happy, I'm not sure it makes sense to uproot them from all that just so you can have all your ducks in a row. Whose happiness are you after? Obviously, as a parent, you're going to be paternal, but they have the right to be their own people, and believe their own shtuss.
Besides which I'm not sure that you outing yourself would convince them, anyway. Fifteen years is a long time. A man becomes institutionalized. Brainwashing is hard to overcome. It's likely they would be repulsed by your heresy. And then you're nowhere but outside. I hope your honest sends you a card on father's day.
>After he hid it from you for 20 years and lived a life of misery and emotional torture because he thought it was an abomination, based on what you taught him. Sure, he'll feel better.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do, here. Wear rainbow clothes all the time, so he knows I'm cool with it, hypothetically? You've got to monitor the situation. If you feel it's very important your son know that you think it's good to be gay (say, it looks like he's leaning that way), then that can obviously be communicated. In any case, I don't think he'd be happier 20 years down the line knowing I do believe he's an abomination, so there's not like a net loss here from my dishonesty, just a missed opportunity. But definitely make known your feelings as they become relevant.
>Maybe because she thought you would be very upset if she broached the possibility?
Don't be that kind of parent. Again, use sechel.
>Or she thought she'd be an outcast to her seminary and BY teachers and friends if she did? (Schools that you chose for her, or at least approved).
Damned if I do, damned if I don't. In an attempt to give her a happy childhood, it's certainly possible that I will indirectly make things uncomfortable for her down the line if she becomes less frum, but I've got to play the odds, and make a cheshbon. I think that's all anyone can ask. What would she do in my position?
>But the consequences of being unhappy in the frum world are worse than the consequences of being unhappy in the non-frum world.
And acc. to the NYT, being happy in the frum world is better than being happy as a sheigetz. It's bad to be unhappy, and it's good to be happy. I don't know how we can measure the disparity between unhappiness in the outside world and happiness in the frum world from an ex ante perspective with anything close to accuracy. Life's a crapshoot. Hell, my kid could become a Mormon.
Boo - Destroying your children's chances for a shidduch
Wouldn't a REAL Orthoprax-er look at it as - protecting their children from being stuck in a marriage/society and living a lie that they could never extricate themselves from?
It's likely they would be repulsed by your heresy. And then you're nowhere but outside. I hope your honest sends you a card on father's day.
I wouldn't mind if my kid disagreed with heresy, but if I raised a kid who was repulsed by heresy, I'd feel I'd failed. I aim to raise tolerant kids who know heresy exists and are tolerant of it. So far, so good.
The problem is that the frum world is tolerant of little outside itself but expects others to be tolerant of frum foibles. It's a one-way street.
I don't mean to imply that doing this is easy; parenting is hard no matter what, and it's always going to be a crapshoot. But I think it can be done.
And acc. to the NYT, being happy in the frum world is better than being happy as a sheigetz.
What a joke, no frum person I know holds of anything printed in the New York Times, yet you're using it as a makor?
>I wouldn't mind if my kid disagreed with heresy, but if I raised a kid who was repulsed by heresy, I'd feel I'd failed.
Right, I'm just saying, per ksil's hypo, where you discover you're OP 15 years into Shmuel Yankov's education in Lakewood, it's a very possible result.
>The problem is that the frum world is tolerant of little outside itself but expects others to be tolerant of frum foibles. It's a one-way street.
Yeah, probably true of most communities always calling for tolerance.
>What a joke, no frum person I know holds of anything printed in the New York Times, yet you're using it as a makor?
First rule of frum citation: If a mekor shel tuma proves my point, it only makes it stronger. It's like sending kofrim to "the biggest scientists" whom I wouldn't allow to touch my wine.
vox,
"I'm not sure it makes sense to uproot them from all that just so you can have all your ducks in a row. Whose happiness are you after? "
well received
"ksil's hypo" = ksi'd reality
biggest scientists...LOL, i laugh every time. morons
ksil's typo...^^ "ksil's" reality
But definitely make known your feelings as they become relevant.
I think this is the key. No big confessions, no buying them books about Biblical criticism for their birthdays, but nothing wrong with outwardly questioning ridiculous midrashim, or criticizing intolerant behavior when you see it.
Sometimes you do have to take the initiative. There is so much problematic about the frum world, yet if you don't point it out, the kids might think you tacitly approve.
As you say, raising kids ain't easy.
>ksil's" reality
Yup. Sorry to hear that. :(
Tesyaa,
Agreed.
I liked this post. I thought it showed flexibility and sensitivity to others. I call that progress.
Here is my take on the children issue. I have 1 rule for child raising: Where applicable set upper and lower bounds, and allow the child freedom with those bounds, i.e. don’t micromanage. Discussing ikrim with a child in your house is micromanaging. No one feels a responsibility to tell a child which interpretation of quantum mechanics he should accept, or whether Platonism in mathematics is true. Why are esoteric and disputed theological issues any different. Our obligation is to introduce our children to the social and religious world each of us have adopted. The problem is the same if we belong to Jewish Renewal and our tefila group begins after we all have meditated on a mountain top, or whether we daven in Satmar along with 10,000 others who belong to our fellowship (gesellschaft, anshei shlomainu, etc.). Things like being part of a community, which include schools, shuls, chevra kadisha,etc., living in a space where we have a wide range of friends and acquaintances, feeling part of a larger Jewish people, are all necessary for successful Jewish socialization. Having the correct views on the mind-body problem or free will is not important.
Our children should not become off the wall Breslovers, nor do we want them sleeping around promiscuously and taking drugs while in college. We shouldn’t be so worried about the middle. If we are gentle and loving and lead a reasonable Jewish life, we can expect yiddish nachis from our kids, even when they are a little frummer or a little less frum.
ej
what is wrong with our children sleeping around promiscuously in college?
Bob...Our children go off to college, the dorms are co-ed, and all around them are activities we as parents find unacceptable. This will be especially true for Orthoprax parents who desire their children to remain observant. What to do? I feel the limits that come from a sense of shame are more secure than those that come from a feeling of guilt. A child must see and feel there are certain activities WE don't do, because of who we are, where we come from, our community and its values. Shame is far more effective than moral guilt, where every college freshman is taught to ask "Who says?" and "How do you know?"
The Japanese who are a most orderly and disciplined people, rely almost exclusively on a sense of shame. Jews use both guilt and shame. Here on the internet we tend to think in terms of reasons and right and wrong. When it comes to children my feeling is that "Es paast nisht," i.e. it is unbecoming, inappropriate, this is not how we live, are more powerful and effective sentiments.
When parents lack feelings of shame in a certain area what can an outsider with different values say?
Skipping everyone's comments, I think the question of "honesty" from a Jewish societal point of view is very simple.
Can this Jew be trusted to not break Shabbos when they are alone?
If shabbat is comming in soon, and they are having guests over, is the food going to be done before shabbat starts, or are they going to be eating food that was cooked on shabbos by a Jew?
This is really the only important/practical question that the honest orthopraxer needs to deal with.
Anon,
Plenty of believing Orthodox people serve their guests bishul akum, because they are too lazy to learn the halachos of having a non-Jew cook for them and they let the housekeeper do the cooking. I think an Orthoprax person is more likely to be aware of the halachic needs of their guests.
" I think an Orthoprax person is more likely to be aware of the halachic needs of their guests"
It's up to the orthoprax person to know if they are going to "skimp" on the mitzvot in private when it affects others Jews. If they aren't going to, and they are honest about it, great.
If they are going to, and they are honest about it, they need to let people know.
Bishul Akuum, and ignorance is a whole different level than breaking Shabbat because of social pressure.
Sorry I'm just seeing this post today.
To me the biggest issue about OPs and honesty is that by hiding their skepticism/nonbelief they are lending tacit support to OJ and all the bigotry that comes with it. Sure, if their kid happens to be gay or OTD, they'll probably find a way to communicate that they don't find anything wrong with it, but that doesn't help everybody else's kids. Everybody else's kid looks at you and says, "wow this smart, knowledgeable man is Orthodox so Orthodoxy is more likely to be true."
Reading this blog over the past several months, it seems to me that XGH's turn to skepticism and disbelief in TMS etc has been driven by a deep desire to find and uphold Emes. In this context, it is understandable that he would see enormous tension between this yearning for truth (TMS if a myth etc) and the daunting social/familial consequences of sharing it widely - hence the tormented state he calls Orthopraxy.
Others (me for example) are not as driven by a need for truth for truth's sake. Instead, OPers like me finally had an epiphany: the whole god thing was a brilliant and power idea, and probably beneficial for human development, but ultimately it is false delusion - full stop. For myself, it took about 6 months of immense pain and mourning for that loss. But on the other side of the aveilus, I got reasonably comfortable with the "truth" issues. I love my family, I find the rituals to be mostly centering (probably b/c I grew up with them - like some people seek out mac/cheese), and I am most comfortable socially in the ortho world.
For me, the "prax" part is about maintaining a sufficient perception to the world outside that I am "Ortho" for those purposes.
As for owing anyone the truth? Well, if god isn't, then I don't owe an obligation to anyone. Hakol havel, period. I've already lost the god that was so close to me for so long. But if no one figures out that I'm prax, not dox, I will, please god, be able to live a life without losing the family, friends, and community that make it a happy one for me.
Anyone else out there think like me?
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/my-take-burial-at-sea-shows-compassion-of-islamic-law/?hpt=T2
check out the first sentence. they're inquisitors as well!
I think these pics are of Nate, but not sure. Maybe not enough Artscroll books.
http://www.news.com.au/pictures/gallery-e6frflv9-1226048347382?page=4
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/BinLadenBookcase.jpg
"For myself, it took about 6 months of immense pain and mourning for that loss".
how did you get over it in 6 months? i'm still at it for years and still can't get closure.
I don't see why anyone would have a right to know about what is in my mind. There is plenty in my internal world that I share with no one or am selective in sharing. It's private business and no one can claim deception merely because I allow them to come to their own conclusions.
Ksil is the ultimate in hypocrisy, bar none. He thinks all of Torah and all of the Mesorah and all of Midrash is nothing but BS, and yet send his daughter to Bais Yakov! LMFAO!
Nate, i wish i could laugh at that fact as you do, but it pains me so much to send her to that school.
This is my dilemna. Yank my kids out of school? Take them away from their friends? They are exceling! Further, there are 2 parents who decide where to send there kids to school. We, as a couple decided together to send her there years ago. My significant other would like to continue to send her there. I cant now throw a wrench into this.
You can call me a hypocrite, i guess. But this is my struggle. My kids know how i feel about the superstition BS that permeates this religion. I will not tell then that its all BS yet though, see EJ's comments above.
Tayqoo -
The emotional pain should be fading with time, just like when a close relative dies. If it isn't, perhaps you have the syndrome Yakov Aveinu had about Yosef (worth looking at the meforshim on that topic and/or if you are up for it discussing it with a therapist).
I learned to cope by sloy realizing a number of things. For example, I don't need to throw out all value of Torah/chazal etc just bc it's not min hashamayim. In fact, it embodies a collection of (often contradictory) wisdom and insight into being human that has built on itself for 5000 years. Moreover, since I grew up with it, I can relate to it better than to most other options, And it is extremely insightful for me. Also, specifically regarding tanach, there was a refactor (or a series over a short spam) who compiled the Chumash, and he/they didn't do it haphazardly. The DH makes for nice kefira, but all those D's were put into a single book and attributed to a single Author. I think exploring the redactor's thinking is fascinating. Neviim and ketuvim are also great texts about our history- so I spend a lot of time learning tanach.
I guess at the end of the day, I am still very proud to be a Jew, I feel at home in the OJ world, and so I am happy to keep my praxy to myself.
It does help that I am a male. Not sure how I'd do as a gal. Does this help?
solomon,
could you email me at ayeqa1@yahoo.com. since i don't use that address on a regular basis please let me know here in the comments whether you've emailed me. thanks.
tayqoo
Done
Ksil: They are excelling because they are in a Torah true environment only. If they were in public school with goyim they would be miserable failures. So even though you are, unfortunately, one of lost souls, your girls will be saved.
thanks nate. excellent point.
Post a Comment