The article is full of choice quotes, many of which are unintentionally (or possibly intentionally) quite revealing / hilarious. Here's a few:
"The Internet has become a breeding ground for an ominous rebellion against the eternal truths of the Torah. Infected with the thought processes of secular philosophies, these heretics are among us as yeshiva bochurim and baalei batim, even in the higher ranks of our community."
Rabbi Deutsch [a kiruv klown] is open about his success rate with the Orthoprax: he has had no success at all. “I sent them to the biggest scientists, who understand science far better than anything they read on the web and are fully Orthodox Jews. Nothing helped.”
Unlike many of the formerly-frum, these Orthoprax men are not bitter toward Judaism, says Rabbi Deutsch. They don’t claim to have been abused, and their family lives tend to have been stable. None of the typical precursors to religious rebellion were present in the Orthoprax. They simply left their emunah behind, following instead a nonsensical thought process into the thicket of apikorsus. Had they any true understanding of Judaism, they would have never felt threatened by secular thought. The problem is their superficial grasp of both topics.
He describes them almost as mentally ill. “To me, [the disbelief] is a sickness,” he says.
So here we have the opinion that (Chareidi) Orthopraxers are almost mentally ill. After all, what other explanation could there possibly be?
Rabbi Yerachmiel Milstein, a senior lecturer for the Discovery Program, puts it even clearer:
Rabbi Yerachmiel Milstein, a senior lecturer for the Discovery Program, puts it even clearer:
... he has found that emotional problems are behind almost all kefira. “In addition to many other things, to stop believing is inconvenient.” Immersed in a religious world, they are suddenly cut off from their entire milieu. “Why would they do it if they didn’t have some emotional issues?”This is actually an awesome quote. Why would anyone want to give up belief? It's so damn inconvenient (very true in most cases). So the only possible reason is emotional issues. What Millstein is acknowledging here, possibly without realizing it, is that the pull to stay a believer is so strong that only the mentally ill or people with "emotional issues" could possibly want to break free. Is there any stronger argument for the bias of religious believers? Amazing!
[Yes, I know what Millstein would respond. The truth of Torah is so obvious that only a mental person would reject it! And the RWMO intelleifundie would respond, only Chareidim are biased, we are not. Or possibly we are biased too, but then so is everyone else.].
I of course live in LWMO land, where about 50% of us are Orthoprax to varying degrees and are not very veiled at all. So I don't feel the article was being written about me or my crowd, and I wasn't particularly bothered by it. But I do know quite a few Chareidi or RWMO Orthopraxers. They wear black hats, are in kollel or who have kids in kollel, or are part of the RW MO world, but are total apikorsim, at least by currently accepted definitions of "Orthodoxy". I guess those kind of closet Orthopraxers would feel more threatened by the article.
73 comments:
I was waiting for your post.
RNS ripped them a new one too...
I find it extremely offensive that they presume answers to the questions but don't even address the issues.
I cannot understand why Phil Rosenthal is mentioned, other than to drum up business. His quotes are totally irrelevant.
Tech tip: I would put a warning about clicking the link to the Ami article; there's some malware involved that got past my (pathetically inadequate) antivirus software.
>these heretics are among us as yeshiva bochurim and baalei batim, even in the higher ranks of our community
And one even calls himself Baal Habos! :-)
Tesyaa, that malware was planted by the author to root out hidden heretics.
>... he has found that emotional problems are behind almost all kefira. “In addition to many other things, to stop believing is inconvenient.” Immersed in a religious world, they are suddenly cut off from their entire milieu. “Why would they do it if they didn’t have some emotional issues?”
... he has found that emotional problems are behind almost all Baalei Tshuva. “In addition to many other things, to start believing is inconvenient.” Immersed in a secular world, they are suddenly cut off from their entire milieu. “Why would they do it if they didn’t have some emotional issues?”
The Orthoprax are porn addicts and wankers. It's really quite simple.
Malware on the link to the scribd document? Methinks not...
The only ones so positive about their beliefs are chareidim and scientologists. Followers of both could benefit from deprogramming.
RNS ripped them a new one too...
Err, did u read my post?! Anyways, I found RNS's piece more offensive. But I may be biased! But that's OK, cos we all are.
>Err, did u read my post?!
Cute.
Yes, of course I read your post.
The "too" was really referring to the fact that he wrote about it "too". Not the ripping. Sorry.
> I sent them to the biggest scientists
That’s so yeshivish. Not the most prominent scientists, or the most accomplished scientists, but the BIGGEST scientists.
> They simply left their emunah behind, following instead a nonsensical thought process into the thicket of apikorsus. Had they any true understanding of Judaism, they would have never felt threatened by secular thought. The problem is their superficial grasp of both topics.
So insulting. Typical, though. The problem is always some flaw in the person asking questions, never with what we’re asking about.
> I sent them to the biggest scientists
Could be he just sent them to some very fat scientists, and that was the problem. I think studies done for consumer advertising show that people are less likely to be persuaded by fat people.
Awesome article. Best quotes:
>But what we are referring here to those who have gone way beyond that — adults who are duplicitous, heretical infiltrators within the ranks of our communities.
Is he saying here that as soon as one becomes a kofer, he should announce his kofer status to everyone he knows, initiate divorce proceedings, etc.?
>But he has closed his mind to faith and reason.
Shades of Cool Hand Luke. "Some men, you just can't reach."
>I know people who outwardly look like chassidim. They dress in veiser zocken [white socks] and are passionate about disputes between chassidic rebbes, but they are nothing more than self-centered phonies.
Not like those ehrliche yidden who wear white socks and are passionate about disputes between chassidic rebbes for selfless l'shem shamayim purposes.
And the topper is this gem of a disclaimer at the end:
>Since the writing of this article, appropriate steps have been taken to protect the public from this posek.
Seriously creepy. Remind me never to agree to an off-the-record conversation with a Charedi publication. I bet if they knew Eli's name, they'd be calling up all the local shadchanim.
Makes me wonder if there was a happy Aharon Gutberg out there they spoke to, but he didn't fit the narrative, and so they went with the depressed one who's life is ruined by his heresy.
how many people are truly orthoprax apikorsim?
i also found the tagline at the end chilling.
The guy fled? they took steps to protect the public?
Would this same guy flee to protect the public from a child molester? a ponzi schemer or swindler?
I grew up among holocaust survivors who were frum but didn't "believe." What's all the fuss about? It was second nature to me. How could you believe after the holocaust?This new American Orthodoxy that is lacking in irony, humor, and life's subtleties will implode just as the "workers' paradise" did two decades ago.That,too, looked like it would last forever.
I have to admit, I have a hard time believing that any Charedim aren't orthoprax.
I have a hard time believing that any Charedim aren't orthoprax.
If you never think, you aren't Orthoprax. That being said, 99% of the world (chareidi and otherwise) doesn't think through most issues.
I found RNS's piece more offensive
Dude, take it as an olive branch.
Questioning tenets of the faith regarded as mental illness. . .where else have I heard this? Perhaps what the chareidim really need is forced "Auditing Sessions" so that the chareidiprax can go "Clear". At least then they's have a shot at attracting bigger celebrities to the cult than Lazer Beams Brody.
LOL on the fat scientists, Vox Pop. I was also chilled by the steps taken against the posek.
LOL on the fat scientists, Vox Pop. I was also chilled by the steps taken against the posek.
They want to claim that all OTDers are hedonists, but Orthopraxers disprove that theory. So now they want to claim that all Orthopraxers are crazy. Where does that leave us OTDers? Still hedonists? Or are we crazy too? Or both?
I sent them to the biggest scientists
And what did they say?
1) Science is wrong (I'm really just scienceprax)
2) Science shows the world is around 6000 years old and God exists (I'm a quack)
3) Science and Torah can be reconciled (I'm modern orthodox)
4) Science and Torah cannot be reconciled but that is the great mysterium you need to accept (I'm large, I contain multitudes)
5) I'm actually an ophthalmologist, but pretend that I'm a scientist
I'm really curious because those responses are either not even remotely sensible or they are kefirah according to hareidim anyway.
I would love to meet this Orthoprax posek, "Aharon Gutberg". I wonder whether he really exists, or if he's just a composite of various people.
The article -- hilarious. I wonder whether the author is actually closeted Orthoprax.
1) Science is wrong (I'm really just scienceprax)
AWESOME!
FYI: I wrote about the article here
I think some people in the frum world hear echoes of Tunisia,Egypt and Syria. Time to ban the internet before it's too late.
> Science is wrong (I'm really just scienceprax)
Gadlus.
>That’s so yeshivish. Not the most prominent scientists, or the most accomplished scientists, but the BIGGEST scientists.
Haha, so very true.
If it's true that by "the biggest scientists" he means "Jonathan Ostroff," that's pretty darned funny.
>5) I'm actually an ophthalmologist, but pretend that I'm a scientist
If it's Ostroff, as alleged, then he's a computer science guy. I'm sure that's really relevant to Frumish, But Curious individuals.
Having some inside knowledge of the interviewer and interviewees, I can say fairly clearly that it wasn't Ostroff. Sapirman was originally interviewed for the article; his science adviser is Ostroff, the man who figured out that every kind of science that examines the past is just not true. What a brain! But "Deutsch" wasn't using Ostroff. Not like it makes a difference.
"If you never think, you aren't Orthoprax. That being said, 99% of the world (chareidi and otherwise) doesn't think through most issues.
"
I'm curious as to the percentage of people you have met in your life who self identify with your 99%
I can think of 3 people I know, and they stand out like sore thumbs, making this 99% number seem absurd to me.
"How could you believe after the holocaust?"
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/06/holocaust-clear-evidence-of-gods-hand.html
"They want to claim that all OTDers are hedonists, but Orthopraxers disprove that theory."
Hardly. The Orthopraxers are merely secret hedonists. The truth is, "Orthoprax" is just a new word for hypocrite. Ever heard of Richard Nixon, Eliot Spitzer or Ted Haggard? They were Orthopraxers.
Anon 1:11, I hereby apologize for using hyperbole in a blog comment. Mea culpa. But I'd also suggest we know different people.
LOL...i was waiting of JP to post his nonsense here...surprised it took so long.
Tesyaa,
Yes, that was hyperbolic of you; the true figure is more like 98%.
Rav Avigdor Miller, zt"l, from a new book called "Q&A", pp38-39
Q: How can we understand the new power of Germany, in view of what Germany did to us?
A: Let me tell you something. We’re making a very big mistake if we think the Germans did something to us. Hakodosh Baruch Hu did it to us. All this stuff, about the Holocaust and talking constantly about that, blinds people to the fact that there is a Hakadosh Baruch Hu in the world. There are no good goyim. No goyim are good. And there are no bad goyim. Only Hashem is good or not good, that’s all. Of course, if it were up to us, we would have to make an army. Even this day, I say, and go to Germany and destroy about 6 million Germans. But that’s only a token, a demonstration. Actually the Germans don’t know anything. They’re like bacteria. You’re going to make a war on bacteria because it causes disease? And therefore, it’s a war against Hashem.
Hashem is the One Who did it. Only, why did He do it? That’s a question. Because Europe was full of Jews who were Bundists, atheists. They were much worse than the Reformers in America. The Reform in America are very bad and they are beheimos, since they are ignorant entirely.
But the Jews in Europe were recently Jews who kept the Torah, and they rebelled against the Torah. Their parents were all Shomrei Mitzvos, and the new generation threw it all away and became Rashaim Gemurim, a terrible generation. I was there, I saw it. And therefore Hakadosh Baruch Hu sent a Holocaust on them.
Of course, here and there, there were pockets of frum Jews, but there was a very great movement away from Torah. They were rebelling against the Torah in Europe. The world keeps quiet about it. I saw it. And therefore, it’s not the Germans that we have to worry about. We have to worry about ourselves. Our enemies are our own; we are the real enemies of the Jewish people. The Reformers are the enemies of the Jewish people. The Conservatives are the enemies of the Jewish people. The college people and the academicians, all the Jewish atheists, the Jewish gays, they’re our enemies. There are so many of them……They’re our enemies. And therefore, stop worrying about the Gentiles, to fight back against them. Of course, I say again, if we have an army, we should go to Germany and execute 6 million Germans. Just as a token, it’s a zecher. But the real battle is not against outside enemies; the battle is against inside enemies.
Nate, you do areal service to our understanding of Avigdor Miller by posting his lunatic rantings on the web for us to read. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Hopefully people will link to this quote so it will come up high on searches for Avigdor Miller. Anyone who might have previously considered his works to have the possibility of strengthening one's faith will now understand that he was a demented fraud.
Rav Miller, zt"l was, and is Daas Torah. I posted this to show you what Daas Torah says about anything but true Torah Judaism, i.e. Orthodoxy.
So you posted a rant from a deranged person who makes claim to a concept called "daas torah" which is a modern invention of Aguda along with the catchphrase "Torah Judaism."
Thank you so much. I hope that google searches for daas torah and "Torah Judaism" also point here so that people can see where the idea leads.
Daas Torah = shut of your brain and listen to me because I have a white beard and communal power.
Torah Judaism = Everyone who does not think exactly like me is a heretic.
Avigdor Miller = deranged rabbi who preached hate and violence with rhetorical flourishes rivaling any extremist cleric.
This quote is golden: "Of course, I say again, if we have an army, we should go to Germany and execute 6 million Germans. Just as a token."
So let's just clarify once more: "Daas Torah" thinks that given the opportunity we ought to slaughter 6 million Germans.
This is great stuff. If you have more material from Avigdor Miller please lay it out.
I would have gone for more than 6 myself.
Excellent. Any other thoughts about what the voices of daas torah might compel you to do?
Nahh, it's not the Jewish way to avenge our own people's deaths, right? We must be tolerant. Even in a gas chamber. Turn the other cheek. Praise Jesus.
Ban. Please. Troll.
Yes, clearly the only way to not turn the other cheek is to kill contemporary Germans. Awesome. Daas Torah at its best. Please, give us more. Don't hold back.
I agree, please ban Ksil.
I'll take one fir the team, if thats what it takes
The usual appeals to ridicule
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html
and ad hominems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Pathetic.
"Torah Judaism = Everyone who does not think exactly like me is a heretic."
You mean compared to atheists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)#Conversational_intolerance
As opposed your rhetoric: the appeal to pornography and masturbation.
That's not just a fallacy, it's deranged.
He calls people pathetic in the same post he accuses ad hominem!!! Gadlus!!!!
Rotfl
Hey jp, here is one for your curious and obscene obsession with keeping track of frum murderers
http://www.silive.com/westshore/index.ssf/2011/04/nypd_charges_staten_islands_ar.html
"As opposed your rhetoric: the appeal to pornography and masturbation."
That's simple cause and effect, no fallacy.
"He calls people pathetic in the same post he accuses ad hominem!!!"
You are pathetic.
"keeping track of frum murderers"
Very likely one of the Orthopraxers you guys are such big fans of.
Here is a photo from the confessed killer's synagogue
http://www.yisi.org/photos.php?spgmGal=Comedy_Cafe_Night&spgmPic=25
And a comment from this post:
"I of course live in LWMO land, where about 50% of us are Orthoprax to varying degrees and are not very veiled at all."
http://modernorthoprax.blogspot.com/2011/04/threat-level-9-orthoprax-chareidi.html
So the odds look good.
This is exactly why I insist: we have to chase hypocrites out of the community BEFORE they hit the headlines.
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/11/hunting-secret-atheists-beginners-guide.html
Okay Nate and anyone else who agrees with R' Miller, maybe you can explain this to me.
If it was Hashem and not the Germans who was responsible for the Holocaust, then what's the point of killing 6 million Germans? According to R'Miller they were just doing Hashem's will. Since when are you chayov mesah for doing Hashem's will? I'm confused about this.
Why would it be okay for Jews to kill Amalek because it's Hashem's will but not okay for Germans to kill Jews because it's supposed to do Hashem's will? So it seems to me that anyone who follows R' Miller ought to be praising the Germans for doing Hashem's will. But you're not. So I'm confused about that too.
Since there were Jews who fought against the Germans, we should be condemning them for not bending to Hashem's will.
And the Allies too. I mean by fighting the Germans they tried to prevent the Germans from fulfilling Hashen's will. Where did the Allies get off not bending to Hashem's will? But you're not condeming the Allies.
And then there are all kinds of mass murders and holocausts in history of non-Jews. If it's Hashem's will that Jews be killed, then kal vhomer it's his will that non-Jews be killed. But if non-Jews have no obligation to be frum, what could they have done to make them chayov mesah on such a scale. And just as with the Jews, we shouldn't blame their killers for killing them, because it was Hashem's will. We should be blaming the victims for trying to negate Hashem's will.
Sorry but it's all very confusing.
God wants good things and bad things to happen, for various reasons. He wants us to be His agents for the good things. The bad things could happen through non-human agents (earthquake, plague, etc) if need be.
nate
how do you think it work? would you be doing dna tests to make sure you dont kill immigrants or you would lump them all together?
would you create internment camps to collect the pure germans (or 1/2 germans, or 1/4 or 1/8?).
would you be simply use bullets, gas, swords, rocks, poison?
What do you think rabbi miller would propose if he could actually rally enough people to go do his bidding?
Do you think he himself would get blood on his hands?
would he kill only men, or women or include children?
What about babies?
Would he say we cant turn the other cheek, so lets crush those german babies heads. And best not do it from a drone missile, hands on is always better, will of hashem and all that.
We seriously need to introduce psychological screening into the giyur process. We have enough demented MOT already.
I think that JP is actually Luke Ford's alter ego. Lutheran upbringing, check. Crazy rantings, check. Obsession with porn, check. I could go on and on.
"Very likely one of the Orthopraxers you guys are such big fans of."
we are not fans, we just are
"we are not fans, we just are"
And that's the problem. Because the next time you decide to blow somebody's brains out because you believe Darwin's nonsense that people are merely soulless bags of chemicals anyway, then we're going to have headlines "Orthodox [not "Orthoprax" or "Orthodox impostor"] Jew convicted of murder".
"We seriously need to introduce psychological screening into the giyur process. We have enough demented MOT already."
Ooh, so touchy. The truth is really painful when it starts chipping away at the brick wall of denial.
I'm sorry that you don't fit in within the Orthodox community. Your ideas clearly come from a painful need to feel more Jewish and more Orthodox than those who don't see you as an equal.
But get this straight, I feel no dissonance about being a descendant of more than 20 generations of rabbis and Holocaust victims yet deeply skeptical about taking most of the claims of Orthodoxy at face value. That is called being honest.
If you haven't noticed, you really do come across as a demented person. When I worked in a kiruv program back in the day there was always around a 35% incidence of crazies - and we would joke about whether we could leave your type off the wagon. In general many would wash out because they were unstable, but others would hang on tenaciously because being part of the frum community was their only hope of normalcy. And sure enough they never become normal, they just became crazy people who were now frum. On occasion, however there were truly psychotic types who were frightening. Unfortunately many of them became the biggest chassidim of the rabbis running the program, and they were blind to how deranged such people were because they loved having hangers on lapping up what they said and acting like groupies.
Anyway, my point is that I'm not merely speculating about your mental state. You fit quite neatly into a type I encountered working in kiruv - somewhere in between plain crazy and out and out psychotic. May god save us from you all.
JP 7:51
You missed the point. the question isn't whether God wanted it to happen. It's how can you blame the Germans for doing what Hashem wants?
Under R" Miller's logic you should be praising them, and blaming the Jews who resisted.
The same way we can blame the Egyptians and Pharaoh for doing what they did even though God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and even though He said years before that we would be slaves. But He still drowned them in the sea anyway. You need to learn more about how free will in Judaism works. It's not the same as the dictionary definition at all. God determines what you will do, He knows that you will do it, and you have the choice, and you get the punishment if you do it. It's entirely illogical, and we like it that way.
Nate,
You didn't answer the question. My question wasn't directed to the issue of whether there's free will. It's a question of whether R' Miller is correct in blaming the Germans. In R' Miller's example he's punishing them, not Hashem. Where does he get off punishing them for doing what Hashem wants?
BTW, what do mean we like it that way? Who is the 'we"you're talking about? The people I know would prefer a system that's more logical. What's there to like about punishment/blame that's illogical and whimsical?
Jeeze, you really don't get it at all. He doesn't blame them, thats the whole point! He said those who do blame them are entirely wrong to do so, even if his human gut reaction is to take some revenge, which we are entitled to do either way.
His point is that it is God who is to "blame" if you need to blame anyone, because the Germans were doing what God wants them to do!
I like it that way because it means I can't understand God's ways, which is way better to me than understanding, which would put me on an equal level, where I don't wish to be. I have no desire to understand Him, only to blindly do what He wishes.
Ichabod,
Give up already - you're up against the Brainless Horseman of Frummy Hollow - all you're bound to do is lose your mind...
"May god save us from you all."
Sure, we need traitors like you. Fake Frum people who may occaisionally kill their wives.
"It's how can you blame the Germans for doing what Hashem wants?"
Because they chose to do it, rather than to allow those people to die of natural causes.
"It's entirely illogical"
finally. nate making some sense!
gut shabbos
Etan,
I'm not trying to do battle with Nate. I'm trying to understand the quote from R' Miller. R' Miller is well respected in many frum circles. Yet the quote seems logically inconsistent to me. The problem can't be on his part. So it must be a failure to my ability to understand it.
Nate sees something worthwhile in it, so I'm trying to find out what it is. I haven't been arguing with him. I'm just trying to get an answer to something that his comment left unclear.
Nate,
Sorry, but you're right, I don't get it. I'm not asking you to explain Hashem's ways. We can even leave your own practices out of this, if you want. I'm just trying to understand the quote from R' Miller that you mentioned.
According to R' Miller the Germans were doing what Hashem wanted, but he would still send an army to destroy them. Then you say that all you want to do is what Hashem wants. Ok fine. A lot of frum Jews would also say they also want to do what Hashem wants.
But why it is that R' Miller believes the Germans deserve an army to destroy them when they're doing something that Hashem wants, while R' Miller would approve of what a frum Jew is doing specifically because the frum Jew is doing what Hashem wants? That's the question I've been asking all along.
JP,
You said
"Because they chose to do it, rather than to allow those people to die of natural causes."
If you choose to do what Hashem wants instead of letting nature take its course, you should be rewarded for it, no?
ALMOST ALL OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG HAVE MISSED THE POINT.
WHO ARE YOU??
REALY, DO YOU KNOW??
JUDGE YOURSELF BEFORE ANYONE ELSE. AND REMEMBER YOU ARE ONE PEOPLE.
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