The strangest part is this:
The Internet is here to stay. There is no way the bulk of Yahadus HaTorah can hide their collective heads in the sand. And if that means that almost everybachur today is exposed to pornography, we have to deal with it. If it means they will be texting constantly, acting inappropriately on blogs and on Facebook, we also have to deal with it.
The bulk of talmidim are into "goyishe music," are up on TV and movies (even if we have no TV's in our houses! even if we have extensive web filters - amazing, right?! I was blown away the other day by the existence of a site called bahalt.com - check it out!!). So we have to deal with it.
And, I am very pained to say this, but we have hid our faces from the phenomenon to our own detriment for far too long. Many, if not most, bachurim have problems with what we can delicately call ni'uf b'yad. So we must deal with it.
Moreover, most of our talmidim find a certain sippuk in these pursuits that we are not giving them (in no small part because 75 years ago we ignored those lines of Dr. Nathan Birnbaum).
Yeshivas HaOlim will deal with it. This is not the place to explain how. Those who know me and my shiurim know some of my methods.
"The "dealing with it" is the explanation al pi darchei Avodas Hashem and a focus on His'alus as to the inner problems and issues that such behavior generates and working on them together. (In many yeshivos the policy is that revelation of such issues is grounds for "expelling first, asking questions later." The other component of a holistic approach is demonstrating how the ma'or in Torah is a thrill that is far more meaningful and rewarding. One aspect of the approach without the other would not suffice."
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39 comments:
On the one hand, acknowledging the issues he faces instead of hiding from them is a step in the right direction. On the other hand, the assertion that watching TV, listening to pop music, and texting is harmful and causes inner problems is what creates the issues in the first place.
> acting inappropriately on blogs
Wonder what that means.
> The other component of a holistic approach is demonstrating how the ma'or in Torah is a thrill that is far more meaningful and rewarding.
So, because learning is meaningful and rewarding, lust will disappear? Intellectual satisfaction and sexual satisfaction are two completely different things. It’s like trying to keep someone from being thirsty by explaining to them how delicious cake is and getting them to eat some.
Finally! A yeshiva for wankers. This perfect for future Jbloggers.
Seems to me RYGB is a one of those guys who must have spent his youth indulging in all these wonderful activities and is now embarrassed about it.
Fun fact - he loves to say "I" all over his website.
Now i know what the torah meant when it said Yadayim y'dei eisav.....its all eisav's fault, that sob!
Well nothing we can do about it.....hakol b'ydei shamayim......
"Seems to me RYGB is a one of those guys who must have spent his youth indulging in all these wonderful activities and is now embarrassed about it."
Hey, that was uncalled for. As a famous Rabbi once said, 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.
"So, because learning is meaningful and rewarding, lust will disappear? Intellectual satisfaction and sexual satisfaction are two completely different things. "
Borosi yestzer horoh, borosi Torah Tavlin. It might work, even from a psychological perspective. I wonder if anyone has done any research on this?
" is of normal frequency and proportions, the best approach is 'don't ask don't tell'. it's just a normal part of life."
This is not the correct approach.
It causes problems for those who can't help but "tell", and problems who feel insecure and thus need to "ask".
What is better is to teach the "proper response" to these actions.
In myself, I have noticed, that sometimes after listening to pop music radio stations for a few weeks, I have a very very slightly different personality than I do when I listen to talk radio... and god forbid I have the self control to listen only to my own mind once in a while.
It is foolish to suggest that "goyishe" music, or modern TV has no affect on a person. Just take some advertising classes and you will learn just how well we are manipulated by the media to sell us products and life styles, and how what was being sold to us has changed over the past 40 years (for the better and for the worse) The point of the change, is in being able to show how it works, and how quickly it works.
Some people I know are working in creating their own "Torah Media" as a response. But a Yeshivah that deals with it, is good as well.
@Zaphod: Being aware of different messages is not part of the problem.. thinking that there are no messages at all, and it's all benign is the problem itself.
For example, in England there is a new public Sex education program which focuses specifically on the problems created by being exposed to porn and modern day advertising.
I thought I would share my own story of how my father did a very good job to "deal with it."
When I was around 12, my father found an issue of sports illustrated swimsuit in my room. He immediately called me over to talk to me, and after getting over the awkwardness, and talking about relationships in general, he said very simply. "Everything in these magazines are fake, and nobody will ever look like these people. Don't set yourself up to be let down."
I wonder how many yeshivah bachurs are given that message when they first encounter these things.
anon 8:26: that was a let down!
i thought he was going to talk to you about the fact that it is normal for a 12 year old boy to look at things like that in private and do certain things. and that what he does privately and what you do privately is nobody else's business. and while these doctored photos are fake, the things that you are feeling are just normal parts of growing up and going through puberty and that you should not feel at all ahsamed about it.
There may be a problem with "don't ask don't tell" here.
Probably the most depressing thing I ever so on the internet was a jblog (whose name I will withhold) by a poor, earnest young man who was under the erroneous impression that niuf biyad is an issur kures. The poor soul could not help himself from engaging in this behaviour regularly. At the same time, he was extremely devout and the idea that he was constantly violating an issur kures upset him greatly. He hated himself and was suffering from a terrible depression.
My point is that while there is obviously nothing wrong with niuf biyad, it will invariably happen that our kids will be taught that this behaviour is not appropriate. You will not succeed in completely stomping out the teachers that will teach the kids to hate themselves for this and the truth is that many Jewish texts speak very horribly about this behaviour. Young kids will stumble across these texts and will not be sophisticated enough to understand that it is ok to ignore jewish tradition on this issue.
I am not saying that I support this school as the little bit you posted sounds rather perverse. But, I don't think "don't ask don't tell" is appropriate either. Kids should be taught that niuf biyad is ok and they should be explained why it is ok to ignore jewish tradition in this case. Preferably, one of the gedolim, like rav belsky or someone, should write a teshuva matering it. Although, i don't think this is likely to happen.
"At the same time, he was extremely devout and the idea that he was constantly violating an issur kures upset him greatly."
Why did it upset him, once he is chayav kares he can masturbate(I think I am the first to say masturbate here) all he wants-he can't die twice.
Neal
I heard of a bachur who snitched to R. Gifter in Telz that his (the bachur's, that is) roomate masturbates regularly. R. Gifter told the snitch "who knows what YOU do when YOU'RE alone in the shower."
The true solution for this problem is marrying at age 12-14. The frum world refuses to accept this and therefore forces its teenage boys to go through years of guilt and inhumane spiritual suffering. You have laws against masterbation and you are a community of legalistic behavior; therefore the only solution is the teenage choson bochur. No more masterbation just nice wholesome sex between husband and wife. By the way up till the late 19th cent. most gedolei Yisroel including most Hassidishe Rebbes got married at 13 or 14. This is historically true. The reason being exactly as described above.So Rabbis and grand Rabbis stop torturing our teenage kids and lets get down to business. That new freedom of religion act that's used to circumvent zoning other statutes will certainly allow for teenage marriage.Mazel-Tov!
You have laws against masterbation and you are a community of legalistic behavior; therefore the only solution is the teenage choson bochur
there's always pilegesh....
You have laws against masterbation and you are a community of legalistic behavior; therefore the only solution is the teenage choson bochur. No more masterbation just nice wholesome sex between husband and wife.
I don't think the average 14 year old boy would last the 12-14 days of the woman's niddah uncleannness, so you would mitigate the problem (while causing a whole host of other major social problems), but solve it entirely.
Forgot to ask, is it OK if a female comments on this thread? Just let me know if any of you are uncomfortable.
so you would mitigate the problem (while causing a whole host of other major social problems), but solve it entirely.
but NOT solve it entirely
One moment-how does the average 25 year old deal with the niddus period? At 25 the guy is already on the far end of the virility curve?Give me a break. Judaism is a strange religion with many strange laws and superstitions all interwoven in one complicated piece of fabric.No masterbation =teenage marriage=sex without the guilt.If you "hold" by this stuff that's the only solution. The Torah tavlin works for about 45 minutes.Then it's back to the "Hirhurim" channel.
"R.Belski would be matir it"...Surely you jest!
Sexually titillating media are pervasive in the world. Teenage boys are the most vulnerable to it. Easy access to porn is another feature of the Internet enabled world.
A yeshiva for wankers (especially one run by a former king wanker) is like putting a paper cup over a geyser - just a waste of good paper.
Our boys (and girls for that matter) need to learn more about realistic expectations of beauty and of relationships. All we can do is plant the seeds that will finally sprout in their early adulthood. To that end, we (parents) must demonstrate these values to our kids through in our relationships with our spouses; we have to make sure they understand our views on what is right and wrong; and we have to make sure they are exposed to those right ideas in literature, movies, etc.
And even so, they are going to explore it all for themselves anyway. Just don't be jealous of them (like good ol RYGB).
[The above text does not mean to imply that RYGB is truly a masturbatory fiend nor that his yeshiva is intended to address this as its only issue - of this I have no direct knowledge. However, his perverse use of the term "niuf bayad" as a rallying point certainly opens him up to such accusations.]
@Anonymous (736am) - touche on R. Yeshua bin Yusef hatekton.
Tesyaa, please recuse yourself. :)
Zaph, the obsession in the frum worldnover the separation of the sexes and the dress of woman, makes this issue more difficult tenfold.
We teach young boys and young girls that girls are sex objects and must cover up, as early as age 9. God forbid they step foot in the mens section at shul....the list goes on and on. And why? Because men cant control themselves! The unintended conseuenses are HUGE. Every time a 12 yr old boy sees a knee or a collar bone, its all over. Its a sick culture.
So your "planting seeds" and "demonstrating values" sounds warm and fuzzy, but we have a backwards culture that is ultimately teaching them how to live their life
The existence of women is the primary cause of the failures of men. Whether it is intended or not is irrelevant. It is a fact that the root of all things, including power, war, money hunger, assault, rape, drunkeness, acting silly or stupid, sports, even how men dress is directly attributable to the presence or non-presence of women.
And that's why tznius can be seen as a cure for all of it.
Oy, hakadosh barcu hu!
Is nate ill or just a troll?
>Every time a 12 yr old boy sees a knee or a collar bone, its all over.
http://youtu.be/4pXfHLUlZf4
Nate bin laden - we missed you. Hope you had a good Pesach. Curious to know your thoughts on the wicked son and what he's doing at the seder.
Ksil -
If you are in the RWOJ world where girls disappear at age 9, there is no option. Run away (or at least switch to a modern option) - save yourself and your kids. Everyone in RWOJ is seeking to be a talmid chacham, and hence the yetzer hara has immense power (see Masechet Sukkah, 52b). Instead, they end up with just the talmid part (i.e., Jewish for Taliban) where they keep the women for reproduction, housework, and (for the really frum kollelnicks) for earning an income.
Etan,
check out this link at the 2:10 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg
it is more exact for "Every time a 12 yr old boy sees a knee or a collar bone, its all over"
(the rest of the video is pretty funny too)
"Maybe I'm just out of touch with modern youth."
Well the modern youth don't seem to be out of touch with themselves.
my eyes are burning from watching weird al
"The existence of women is the primary cause of the failures of men"
this should go down as one of the greatest quotes of all time.
"to be or not to be..."
"ask not what your country can do for you..."
"i have a dream..."
and Nate's gem
"So, because learning is meaningful and rewarding, lust will disappear? Intellectual satisfaction and sexual satisfaction are two completely different things. It’s like trying to keep someone from being thirsty by explaining to them how delicious cake is and getting them to eat some."
Plus lots of people just don't like cake; I think the proportion is even higher for Talmud.
"Borosi yestzer horoh, borosi Torah Tavlin. It might work, even from a psychological perspective. I wonder if anyone has done any research on this?"
Has any real research restricted to the torah ever been conducted?
"
Probably the most depressing thing I ever so on the internet was a jblog (whose name I will withhold) by a poor, earnest young man who was under the erroneous impression that niuf biyad is an issur kures...
I am not saying that I support this school as the little bit you posted sounds rather perverse. But, I don't think "don't ask don't tell" is appropriate either. Kids should be taught that niuf biyad is ok and they should be explained why it is ok to ignore jewish tradition in this case. Preferably, one of the gedolim, like rav belsky or someone, should write a teshuva matering it. Although, i don't think this is likely to happen."
Not likely is an understatement. You may have missed it but the kabbalistic literature considers "niuf biyad" (btw, where does that expresion come from?) the WORST aveira possible (so, worse than kares). Hell will freeze before a charedi or even MO rabbi says it's ok.
And this school will not improve the situation, only make it worse. Masturbation (oops, sorry, niuf) is not really discussed in yeshiva, harping upon it will only make it worse.
This post is hard to fap to. But it's on the Internet, so I'm doing it anyway.
"Niuf biyad" comes from the gemaras at the beginning of Perek Kol Hayad in Meseches Niddah.
ksil said...
anon 8:26: that was a let down!
Ksil, I am curious.
did your father ever tell you that spitting phlegm from your throat in public is a perfectly natural thing?
What about picking your nose?
Did this affect your behavior in those areas?
My father's lesson helped me in life. Telling me that it was normal, wouldn't have done anything except get me grossed out by my father.
Its too bad you view an open, honest, heart to heart with a parent, discussing a potentially embrassing, personal, guilt-ridden act and possiblly building strong close bonds - and all you can think of is that you get grossed out
Sorry to hear that
Telling a child that doing a normal thing that everyone else does should not make him feel such guilt is a nice thing
May I add (for Ksil) that I am sure his father would also counsel not to phlegm nor wank in public, however natural the overall act might be.
Anon 826 - get a grip!
>"Niuf biyad" comes from the gemaras at the beginning of Perek Kol Hayad in Meseches Niddah.
Not true. Niuf Biyad comes from watching porn.
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