Tuesday, August 23, 2011
Did Chazal ruin Biblical Judaism or improve it?
One often hears in MO (and more specifically LWMO) circles about how Chazal darshened away some of the more egregious aspects of Biblical Judaism e.g. Ben Sorer uMoreh, the various death penalties and such. However from another angle, Chazal took Judaism in a worse direction than the Biblical writers. The Neviim were huge proponents of social justice (or were made to appear so), with various famous passages proclaiming how God hates avodah and mitzvos and just wants basic justice and kindness. Of course Chazal were not against justice and kindness, but with their emphasis on halachic minutae it seems that the Neviim's message has gotten somewhat lost, and this is reflected even today with the Chareidi emphasis on halachah and chumrah as opposed to basic morality and care of all humanity,
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Mi'meil...It must be what HKBH wants...because it is what survived
Simple rabbinic tyranny. Keeps the power for the establishment and makes rabbinic Judaisim into a sham.
"various famous passages proclaiming how God hates avodah and mitzvos and just wants basic justice and kindness. "
Simply not true. It says He hates avodah done at the same time you are screwing the widow and orphan, not that He hates avodah or mitzvos per se. Some of the most famous passages connect, say, Shabbos observance, with social justice.
Respecting your specific point, Chazal spoke both through halacha and agada. You need both. Structure and sprit. Heart and mind. Menchlikeit and observance. Today, the super frummies forget agada, and the liberal Jews forget halacha. As someone once wrote, agada without halcha is a ghost, but halacha without agada is a corpse.
>The Neviim were huge proponents of social justice
THere is no such thing as social justice in the bible. There is justice. Plain and simple. Social justice is a made up term today so some people can feel good about themselves. The neviim were certainly sending the message that justice becomes before the ritual. But that just goes to show that the ritual also has a placce.
I also have a hard time believing in was chazal who implemented these changes. Most likely, these punishments had already been eradicated before them and they were now giving a sort of retroactive reasoning behind it. (Sort of what charedim do today with minhagim) It seems it was something more fluid, even going back to Ezra's time. According to the bible, he WAS the one explaining the bible ma'aseh to them. I am sure interpretations arose then and even before. Don't forget not all jews were situated in Israel or Bavel.
"the super frummies forget agada, and the liberal Jews forget halacha"
But moshe got it just right!!!
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right....
Ksil,
"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...."
No, the song that best describes my ideological situation is actually "Lonely, I'm Mr. lonely...." :)
"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right..."
Not from the perspective of this blog...
More like:
"
Don't you love farce?
My fault I fear.
I thought that you'd want what I want.
Sorry, my dear.
But where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns.
Don't bother, they're here.
"
"I also have a hard time believing it was chazal who implemented these changes. Most likely, these punishments had already been eradicated before them and they were now giving a sort of retroactive reasoning behind it."
Excellent point! Almost obvious now that you say it.
It's doubtful that Judaism would have survived without the ritual minutae. That's what gave diverse Jews something to connect to and say "this is Judaism". A vague set of social justice values wouldn't have kept Judaism as one people/religion for so long. Even today, diverse groups that are halachically observant have totally differing social values. The only commonality is halachic observance.
It's doubtful that Judaism would have survived without the ritual minutae.
Rituals, yes. But not all the minutae. Especially the obsessiveness (e.g., the exact shiur of matza, spending an hour finding an acceptable lulav, glatt versus plain old kosher, no more mezonot rolls, etc). And even more so, the increasing obsession with defining what are "legitimate" views (e.g., age of the universe, evolution, secular studies, roles of women, infallibilty of Chazal, etc.). Those undermine the sense of connectedness.
"Chazal" would include Hillel (who said that he could teach Torah while standing on one foot by saying "what is hateful to you, don't do to others, now go and study"). It would also include Pirkei Avot, which states that without derech eretz (treating others decently), there is no Torah.
JRK, pirkei avos says many ridiculous things
Hey, you stated in a much more direct way what I was trying to communicate, thanks, I will recommend your site to my friends.
My site:
dsl flat anbieter und dsl anbieter
"Rituals, yes. But not all the minutae."
Nu, and how about the four different colors of white that demonstrate tzaraas? Pretty minute minutae if you ask me.
Hector, no comparison to mishna berura!!
You ever read that book?
This would be great for an XGH fisking, although in his weakened state I don't know if he's up to it.
http://blog.webyeshiva.org/orthodoxy/the-mission-of-orthodoxy-project-no-27-synagogues-and-conclusion
Hey moshe. Are you a maamin? Just curious.
Hey moshe. Are you a maamin? Just curious.
"Hey moshe. Are you a maamin? Just curious."
Let me answer that question with a famous story:
"Once, when Rabbi Noach (of Lekhovitz) was in his room, he heard one of his chasidim beginning to recite Rambam's ikkarim in the House of Study, next door. The chosid stopped immediately after the words “Ani maamin b'emunah shelemah” and said out loud, “I don’t understand that!” And then once more: “I don’t understand!”
Thereupon, Rabbi Noach came out of his room, and asked him, “What is it that you do not understand?” Said the chosid, “How can I say ‘I believe’. If I really do believe, then how could I ever sin? And I sin. But if I really don’t believe, why am I telling lies?”
Rabbi Noach replied, “You do not understand. The words ‘I believe with perfect faith’ are just a prayer, meaning 'Oh, that I may believe!'”
The chosid was then imbued with an inner radiance. “That is right!” he cried. “That is right! Oh, that I may believe. Oh Riboino Shel Oilam, that I may believe!”
ok, i'll take that as a yes. so just curious, what's your reasoning for believing (or I guess, technically, the reason that you want to believe)?
"what's your reasoning for believing"
Impossible to fully answer in this setting. But, since you ask, I will try to give a brief synopsis, though it will inevitably be an oversimplification and a distortion. First, in terms of my personal history:
1. I was brought up to believe.
2. I later became educated and realized that not everything I had been taught held water.
3. I studied various thinkers on the issue and came to my present beliefs.
For me, emuna begins as an intuition as to the nature of reality. Is the world just a chemical accident, or is there meaning and purpose to our existence? You can't really prove either position; you have to choose by intuition.
I intuit meaning and purpose.
I would call the source of that meaning and purpose, and of our existence "God".
The next question is, given that one intuits the existence of such a God, is it reasonable to suppose that He would remain forever silent, not communicating His will to his creatures. I would answer that question "no".
My next intuition would be that the Tanakh was divinely revealed, and contains such will, even though it also contains a human element.
By following the divinely revealed mitzvot, and rabbinical enactments authorized by such revelation, we demonstrate our commitment to God and His will for how we should live our lives. Ideally, we also serve as an example for non-Jews, who are equally His children , and are obligated to follow the principles of universal morality codified in the "sheva mitzvot bnai noach"
Moreover, performance of the mitzvot in the proper manner instills in us an attitude of gratitude that drives away the callousness that is the root of so much evil in the world.
Performance of the mitzvot by rote is better than nothing, and has some value, but does not fulfill our highest purpose. To study shas and poskim, even to master them, without letting the values of the Torah master one's heart, is not much different that mastering, say, the game of chess. It's a great intellectual feat, but nothing else. Many evils have been perpetrated by smart minds with stony hearts.
God wants the heart.
so it all boils down to "i think that there must be meaning to my life"
i hate that damn feeling.
there does not have to be meaning. just becasue you intuit it, you are most likely wrong. its sad that you live, then you die and thats the end...but you need to get over it.
i am working on that
There are so many ways you can add real meaning to your life without "believing". Help other people. Help other people more. Make the world a better place. Put your money where your mouth is.
Using belief (in a religion or a greater power) as a substitute for concrete action to improve the world (or your little corner of it) is actually quite selfish.
"you are most likely wrong."
And you calculate this statistical probability based on...what exactly?
"There are so many ways you can add real meaning to your life without "believing". Help other people...Put your money where your mouth is. "
Interesting that studies show that religious people are more charitable.
See, e.g., http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=1161
Who needs to put their money where their mouth is? :)
I shouldn't have used the "money" expression - put your ACTIONS where your mouth is. Money is useful, but for example, all the money in the world won't buy a pint of blood if no one is willing to donate.
Anyone can donate (and anyone can claim shul dues, building funds and other frum must-haves as charitable contributions, when they really only benefit the member and his immediate group).
I don't really care if Moshe is a maamin. It's his own business; to each his own; whatever floats his boat, etc...
"you are most likely wrong."
"And you calculate this statistical probability based on...what exactly?"
sorry. my bad. should have read "you are wrong"
likewise, it makes no difference to me if you believe in santa claus or TMS or any bit of narishkeit or whatever boat you are floating.
>Using belief (in a religion or a greater power) as a substitute for concrete action to improve the world (or your little corner of it) is actually quite selfish.
Why is it selfish? Most people out there don't donate their time to making the world a better place. What then? Stop allowing people to at the very least, make THEIR lives happier through belief?
HH, your comment shows you missed the point.
Maybe people would feel BETTER if they got off their duffs and donated their time... then they wouldn't need religion to feel better.
And what about people who don't help make the world a better place, but feel better about their lives by watching reality TV? You're basically equating belief with escapism (which I'm sure you didn't mean to do).
>You're basically equating belief with escapism (which I'm sure you didn't mean to do).
No I'm not. YOU did. I never said a person that has religion escapes. He is dealing with all the nuts and bolts of everyday life like anyone else. Religion can serve a great role for that especially when life throws you the hardest test. A person that escapes into TV reality shows is not a happy person in the long run.
HH, we are talking past each other. You said that people make their lives happier through belief. I said that some people make their lives happier by watching reality TV. It doesn't mean that either group is not able to deal with everyday life; it just means that some like Gemara, some like the Kardashians.
I like knitting myself, even though I know I'm not a talented designer. It's a diversion that makes my life happier. Like Gemara for some. Or the Kardashians for others. (or Doctor Who, or Tolkien).
And how do you know what makes a person happy in the long run? As has been pointed out on other blogs, religion makes some people downright miserable.
What are we talking about here Tesya? Seriously! You questioned why the need for religion to make one feel good when they can just donate money or time. I answered they are not mutually exclusive AND religion serves another purpose for everyday life.
I am not talking about diversions or moments of happiness and laughs. I'm not talking about hobbies or anything of a sort. I am talking about a systematic way of life. To deal with the good, and to deal with the bad. You don't find meaning through Kardashians. Sorry, you don't.
Let me give you a personal example to what I am talking about and how a selfish desire religion can be. My wife was going through a tough time dealing with issues (specifically finances). It would make her grumpy, anxious etc etc. Seeing others getting by very nicely (we live near an affluent community), while we had it hard made her fed up and we fought about how she takes it. She read the book "garden of emuna" and things changed. Laugh at the book all you want, but from a pragmatic sense, it helped her find more meaning and cope better. That to everything, there is meaning. Our home now, a happier place. So she didn't need to go down to Africa and hand out mosquito nets. She did her part, but at home.
Here is what I said:
>Why is it selfish? Most people out there don't donate their time to making the world a better place. What then? Stop allowing people to at the very least, make THEIR lives happier through belief?
What so controversial about it exactly? Is it true, or is it false? You took it as though I am saying they are escaping. Not true. I am saying their everyday life (and all that it encompasses) is now changed through the prism of belief and meaning. If their lives are better, they can affect others around them in a positive way.
HH, you keep talking, but dont actually say anything.
Someone said that the reason they do all these silly things and believe in the invisible man in the sky is that they have a deep desire to have a meaningful life....and wearing fringes and blowing a rams horn makes them "fell" like they are living a meaningful life....tesyaa just pointed out that there are other, more altruistic ways to live a meaningful life than locking yourself in a conference room and reading ancient texts all day,
Simple
Ksil,,
As usual, you don't read anything. Go back, and read everything I wrote.
And ksil, I have somehting to whisper to you in your ear
{{I don't lock myself in a room all day and read ancient texts}}
But sssshhh, that was secret.
"there are other, more altruistic ways to live a meaningful life than locking yourself in a conference room and reading ancient texts all day"
Agreed.
Isaiah 58:
"...[L]oose the bands of wickedness, undo the heavy burdens, ...let the oppressed go free, ...break every yoke... deal thy bread to the hungry ... when thou seest the naked ... cover him ... hide not thyself from thine own flesh....Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine healing shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.
Bavli Berachot 17a:
A gem from the mouths of the Rabbis of Yavneh: I am God's creature and my fellow is God's creature. My work is in the city and their work is in the field. I rise early for my work and they rise early for their work. Just they do not presume to do my work, so I do not presume to do their work.
Will you say, I do (learn) much and they do (learn) little? We have a tradition: One may do much or one may do little; it is all the same, provided one directs one's heart to heaven...
A gem from the mouth of Raba was: The goal of wisdom is repentance and good deeds....
HH, it seems you are saying that religion provides a framework to desk with life's problems. Do you even care if your beliefs are based in reality, as long as they give you that framework? Some of us find that a framework built on a mirage is no framework at all.
Besides, you know what? There are emotionally healthy, productive people in the world who do not buy into religion but who still are able to deal with major life issues.
>HH, it seems you are saying that religion provides a framework to desk with life's problems.
Nooo!!!, I said religion gives life meaning. It also helps with those moments that try us. It deals with the "everythings" that we go through. Is there other ways out there? Sure? Is religion one of them. Yes. So what are you arguing here then?
>Do you even care if your beliefs are based in reality, as long as they give you that framework?
Well, if someone believes, clearly they think its based on reality, right?
>Besides, you know what? There are emotionally healthy, productive people in the world who do not buy into religion but who still are able to deal with major life issues.
Did I say otherwise? You were the one attacking religion. I wasn't attacking people finding other ways of being productive or healthy. Unless of course, you are talking about kardashians giving meaning to ones life. Then I would have to disagree.
" if someone believes, clearly they think its based on reality, right?"
Does that matter?? I dont "believe" in gravity.....there! It does not exist! You can believe anything you want...it is still false.
And btw, you may not study ancient texts all day long, but almost all frum people that i have known and met in my lifetime value that. In fact, i would say many many many of them support that endevour financially and view someone that does do that as a holy person and a noble career or goal. Further, i bet many truly believe that people sitting and studying thise texts all day long are the ones that allowed the jews to acheive victory in israel in all their unfortunate wars. So i know you may not actually do that ( how could you have time while perusing the internet And blogs all day?) but it is a core value (and idiotic, my view)
>You can believe anything you want...it is still false.
Um..alrighty then
>So i know you may not actually do that ( how could you have time while perusing the internet And blogs all day?) but it is a core value (and idiotic, my view)
Ksil, I don't know in what orthodox bubble you grew up in (and probably still in), but you need to get some. This value is not monolithic at all.
>but you need to get some
Should read get 'out' some.
HH, I don't know of any Orthodox community in which learning lots of Torah is not held up as an ideal, even if not everyone practices it.
>HH, I don't know of any Orthodox community in which learning lots of Torah is not held up as an ideal, even if not everyone practices it.
Thats not what he was talking about. He is talking about locking yourself up and doing nothing but learning all day. That idea, is not monolithic let alone valued by all. Especially the idea that it is those people that protect us against harm. I have never heard anyone outside the most charedi charedi camp that believes that.
Look, I learn lots of Torah. But I also work, take care of family, fix clogged toilets and jog.
"I have never heard anyone outside the most charedi charedi camp that believes that."
you should get out some
>you should get out some
Well, here is an example: In Israel, the only people I ever heard say (or even agree with) that missiles are not killing more innocent people is because of all the kollelnicks come from the charedim. I don't hear this from MO.
i hereby remove the phrase "locking yourself up in a conference room to study ancient texts."
it should read "studying ancient, unecessary, irelavant and outdated texts yomama v'laila - or at least kovei'ah itim (for the YU guys in the room) talmud torah k'neged kulam.
now stop trying to nitpick and parse people's words and try to understand the point that they are making.
>now stop trying to nitpick and parse people's words and try to understand the point that they are making.
Then why don't you start actually expressing what you are really talking about for a change.
Anyways, you find them irrelevant. Great. Others don't. They enjoy it. Great. True beliefs or not, at the very least it's our heritage and there are plenty of conservative and orthoprax Jews her that enjoy connecting to it for that reason.
"Then why don't you start actually expressing ..."
i'll try to dumb it down for ya'....
So, everyone here who is ranting against religious people... What did you do today to help people?
How is watching Jersey Shore better than reading an ancient text?
Bunch of hypocrites.
"i'll try to dumb it down for ya'...."
It's hard to sound more dumb than you already do.
chiloni, i'll still try!
Hey moshe, its me, the anon from above. Thanks for your reply. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this idea of intuition. I mean, I know what it is and I know that in philosophy, you learn that there are some basic truths that you know intuitvely and without accepting those truths, nothing else can ever be known (like induction and deduction).
But, still, when you think about methods of learning truths in general, intuition seems pretty weak, especialy when compared to empiricism and the scientific method. Look at the history of science, where most people were wholey wrong about so many scientific facts until they started applying empericism and the scientific method. The simple reality we must accept is that our intuition is not well suited to make judgments about things out of the realm of our experience. Our intuition is also clouded by many biases so it is difficult to properly understand reality based on intuition. Thus, my question to you is, why do you think that your intuition is correct?
This queston is strengthened by the fact that I assume many people have intuitions that their relegion is true but I assume you think most of those people are wrong. Thus, you would seem to agree that, for most people, intuition is a pretty bad way to test the truth of a relegion. If that is the case, what makes you think that your intuotion is any more reliable.
Thanks again,
Anon
Anonymous,
Just saw your newest comment.
You are right. Intuition can be unreliable. But there are some fundamental assumptions that we make every day, where we have no choice but to intuit, one way or the other. For example, you cannot prove to yourself that anyone you know actually exists. Perhaps your present consciousness of them is but a long dream from which you will eventually wake up.
Similarly, none of us can prove why the universe exists at all. So some of us intuit a creator; others do not.
When you have enough people intuiting roughly the same view of reality, you get, among other things, a religion.
I advocate using empiricism and the scientific method to ascertain those things that they are capable of ascertaining. But there are postulates of reality beyond the scientific method.
For a renowned scientist's take on that fact, see http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html
I typed a really long reply but it got erased and so I am now too frustrated to respond. I guess this will have to be the end of our discussion.
"I typed a really long reply but it got erased and so I am now too frustrated to respond.I guess this will have to be the end of our discussion."
Sorry to hear that. It's happened to me many times. I try now to type long comments in Word first, saving periodically. I will try in check in here over the next day or two,b"n, just in case you change your mind.
Moshe, pretty sure that you dont need to say bli neder, if you just say you are going to " try" to check in...but you may want to ask a Rov. I know i do before i ever say bli neder,,,,,or pish
The fact that the neviim continued to rail against injustice seems to indicate that Judaism in their time was not so successful in rooting out injustice.
So many truths. Sometimes get lost. I love the jewish halacha but I can not see these, the whole idea of this went forward, the roots walk. It must be remembered.
Judaica art
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